NEWS

[5]Optimized Gun Adept help required

  • 43 Replies
  • 26948 Views

PunkxRonin

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 7
« on: <05-19-14/2255:05> »
So I'm thinking of building a gun-adept for a game. I've currently got a pretty chromed out street samurai. He's very fun mechanically, but a bit dull to RP for various reasons. Because of this I'm thinking for my enjoyment levels to stay high It might be time to retire my chrome boy. The problem becomes I would need to be able to fill the same role for the group. I'm thinking a Gun Adept would do that quite well while being some thing new for me, as I've not played an adept in Shadowrun.

The role I need to fill will be that of the party's pain-bringer, the one who can deal out damage and keep the enemies heads down while the rest of the team works. We've got a Face, Technomancer/hacker, and Shaman. All are combat capable mind you (our technomancer is scary with a shotgun and I've never seen a Mage with Mana bolt/ball not be scary), but my character/role is the one who brings the pain and gets people to shoot at him instead of the others. So this is what I would need to be able to bring to the table.

As I've never played an Adept I only have a basic understanding of how they work mechanically, IE for the most part augmentations are counter intuitive (less power points), and pretty much every thing you'd want can be done via a power. I'm thinking automatics as the primary weapon type as that can allow me to use an assault rifle or a SMG/Machine Pistol, though there's some appeal toward heavy pistols.

I don't see him needing melee options but it would be nice, especially because strength gives you more recoil compensation if I opt for automatics and autofire/burst fire.

So how would you go about building an adept gun-monkey? What Adept powers are most useful? What foci/qi-foci are useful? Are there any augments that you'd recommend? Is it better to boost defense roll or armor for an adept? What weapon(s) would you recommend?

As for personality and character archetype I was thinking he'd be in his late teens, early 20s, and an adrenaline junkie. Cocky and a bit narcissistic (being born an adept kinda went to his head), materialistic, but a bit contemplative with an artistic bent. Like maybe he views gun-fighting as a form of artistic expression and he's an artist... One day if he's lucky enough to hang up his running life style (like that ever happens...) he could rededicate his adept skills toward some phenomenal artistic pursuit. He's just not mature enough to see that yet. Thinking he's probably a corp kid (or an elf with influential parents in Tir Tairngire), or some one who's not had to live in the sprawl (but does it because he thinks it's cool). Club kid, knows the latest hot spots, and trends, and such. Thinking it would be fun to play a runner who got into the game because he thought it was "cool" and as game goes along starts to see reality isn't as pretty as the trids make it look.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4471
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
« Reply #1 on: <05-20-14/0244:02> »
The Cizerak have a saying: "Intelligence above speed, speed above strength, strength above weakness."  Let it be your guide.   ;D
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

GoodbyeSoberDay

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 18
« Reply #2 on: <05-20-14/0534:45> »
I'm not an expert at all, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

It's hard not to recommend DBCAE priority for human magical characters of any type.  Adepts end up with a respectable 3 edge, very nice stats, and a broad set of skills to help with versatility.  If you do that with an elf you end up with 5 magic, which is almost still worth it... but it's also a reason humans make nice magical characters (IMO).

The way I prefer to build characters is to have a large number of good dice pools instead of one or two great dice pools.  To that end I would use adept powers to pump agility directly (after getting improved reflexes of course), and pump every gun skill to 6 either via skill group or individually.  But most people want one or two great dice pools, plus good general combat stuff, so let's see what we can do with that with our human from above.

You could max agility, and softmax reaction/intuition/willpower.  That leaves enough to get 2 str and 3 bod.  If you want higher mentals (1 log and 1 cha might not fit the character admittedly) or strength, I'd spend karma on them.  If you really want to avoid 1s, and karma isn't enough, I would deduct 2 from willpower, and the rest from reaction.

We can put the skill groups into 6 stealth and 4 athletics, leaving automatics open to specialize (though I'd still put 6 in the other gun skills).  I'd max Con/Etiquette/Perception as well, as they all come in handy.  Luckily you can let the mage deal with the magical skills.  This still leaves you with plenty of points to spread as you please.

Nab a mentor spirit; I suggest one of Dragonslayer, Eagle, and Wise Warrior.  There are other nice PQs but it's too tempting to use the karma to get a base level of equipment and raise stats/skills instead.  Load up on NQs of course.  For power points I'd definitely get Increased Reflexes 3 and at least Combat Sense 1.  After that I'd nab Enhanced Accuracy (automatics), Danger Sense 1 (because it's .25 cost), and Improved Ability (automatics) 3, or 4 if you took one of the mentor spirits listed above.

That, a smartgun and an armor jacket leaves you with the following combat stats:

Initiative: 4d6+13
Automatics: 17 dice, 19 with specialty weapon
Other shootin': 14 dice, still respectable
Passive defense: 13 dice
Soak: ~12 dice, depending on exactly what you do here

Other nice things include 12 stealth-related dice, 11 perception dice, not being a complete idiot when it comes to running/swimming/lying/being nice, and having plenty of skill points left over to flesh out the character.  One thing you might notice is that there are no foci.  This is a (slight) limitation when starting out, but you can basically save your first chunk of change on a good Qi focus; honestly the way I see it adepts don't have a lot to spend their money on, and Qi foci get expensive and addictive really quickly anyway.  You could easily represent your wealthy past with this small amount of nuyen by spending a little karma on a high loyalty/middling connection contact... your parents.

mjack

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 101
« Reply #3 on: <05-20-14/0611:31> »
With high AGI you can always think about spending just 3 Karma for the Agile Defender positive quality (SR5 R&G, p.127) which allows you to swap WIL with AGI for Full Defense. And if you never plan to pick Adept Powers causing Drain as well as never plan to get Augmentations you might take the Sensitive System negative Quality (SR5 CB, p.83).


ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #4 on: <05-20-14/0747:10> »
There are too many powers to pick from for gun bunny adepts: several ranks of Combat Sense, 3 ranks of Improved Ability (your firearm of choice), 1 or 2 ranks of Improved Reflexes, several ranks of Mystic Armor if you think you'll get hit a lot, 1 rank of Attribute Boost (Agility), Improved Sense (Thermographic), Enhanced Accuracy (your firearm of choice)... those powers alone already add up to a maximum of 10.75 PP, and even with enough nuyen, 7.5 PP is the safe maximum (higher than that at the same time, and you start risking Addiction).
So here's one possibility:
  • Improved Reflexes 1: 1.5 PP
  • Force 4 Qi Focus with 1 rank of Improved Reflexes: 8 Karma, 12k nuyen
  • Improved Ability 3 (firearm of choice): 1.5 PP
  • Attribute Boost 1 (Agility): 0.25 PP
  • Enhanced Accuracy (weapon of choice): 0.25 PP
  • Combat Sense 5: 2.5 PP
  • Save some Karma at chargen, Initiate ASAP, pick an extra PP, max Improved Reflexes


Improved Ability (automatics) 3, or 4 if you took one of the mentor spirits listed above.
Mentor spirits only give bonus dice: Improved Ability is limited by your natural skill level, so the only way to start with 4 effective ranks in it is if you have Aptitude.

Kincaid

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2623
« Reply #5 on: <05-20-14/0844:28> »
My gun adept (named Kincaid, as fate would have it) isn't optimized, but he still rolls 22 dice to shoot (effectively 20 because of Sharpshooter) and 17 dice on defense tests.  He isn't Missions-legal (yet) if that's a concern.  He's not incredibly bright and he's not quite as charming as he likes to think he is, but he's fun to play.

Attributes A
Magic B (Magic 6, Sneaking 4)
Resources C (140k)
Skills D (22/0)
Race E (Human, +1 Magic--he took Exceptional Attribute: Magic to offset the lost PP via cyber)

Bod 3
Str 3
Agi 5( 8 )
Rea 5 ( 8 )
Log 2
Cha 4
Int 6
Wil 4

Essence 5.01
Magic 7(6)

Pistols 6
-Semi-Autos +2
Con 1
-Seduction +2
Perception 4
-Visual +2
Blades 3
-Swords +2
Tracking 1
-Urban +2
Pilot Ground Craft 1
-Bikes +2

-A lot of these skill choices aren't optimized and reflect various parts of his backstory.

Augmentation
Muscle Toner 3 (used)
Smartlink (alpha)
Reflex Recorder, Pistols (alpha)

Positive Qualities
Exceptional Attribute: Magic
Quick Healer
Sharpshooter
Brand Loyalty, Product Level (Ares Heavy Pistols)

Negative Qualities
Distinctive Style
Gremlins
Mild Addiction

Karma
-11 net from PQs (11)
+1 Influence Group (5)
Binding Force 4 Ki Focus (+2 Combat Sense) ( 8 )
+2,000 nuyen (1)

Power Points
Improved Reflexes 3 (3.5)
Combat Sense 1 (.5)
Improved Ability, Pistols 2 (1)
Enhanced Accuracy, Pistols (.25)
Nimble Fingers (.25)
Spell Resistance 1 (.5)

-Again, Spell Resistance is character-based, to optimize, you'd want to look into Mystic Armor or +1 Improved Ability.

Gear pretty much as expected.







« Last Edit: <05-21-14/1123:46> by Kincaid »
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9944
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #6 on: <05-20-14/0900:59> »
You lucky adepts with yer Combat Sense. :< I'm at 13 defense and 17 offense, and my initiative is horribly gimped.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Csjarrat

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5108
  • UK based GM + player
« Reply #7 on: <05-20-14/1327:52> »
ok, so for a gun-fu adept:
purely optimised, you want to go an Elf for the boost to AGI and probably something like the below for priorities:

A: Attribs (24)
B: Adept (6, +R4 Skill)
C: Skills (28/2)
D: Elf (0)
E: Resources (6k)

on my gun-fu adept i went for the following spread of attribs:

Attribs:
BOD 5 (+4)       
STR 5 (+4)
AGI 7 (+5)
REA{7}(+4)
CHA 4 (+1)
INT 4 (+3)
LOG 2 (+1)
WIL 3 (+2)

EDG 2 {+10 karma}
MAG 6
ESS 6

which gives decent attack +defense pools and a good base initiative to start from (minimum of two passes without any interrupts) and you can still be passable at social skills.
As for powers:

Adept Powers: 6pp
Critical Strike: clubs (free, thunderbird mentor)
Improved Reflexes R2 2.5         
Improved Automatics R3 1.5
Enhanced Accuracy (automatics) .25
Enhanced Accuracy (clubs) .25     
Combat Sense R3 1.5   

and then you can add to these with Qi foci. if you can jiggle the priorities around, you could take improved reflexes at R1/2 and then get a foci for +1 level to save power points.
Combat sense is a must for the boost to defense, enhanced accuracy helps for those awesome rolls that would otherwise hit the limits of your accuracy but its not critical.
obviously take your improved "skill" power on your main combat skill to get you to the max of 9 (or ten with aptitude).

other than that, biggest issue i have with combat adepts is smartgun. it costs a fortune and doesn't really give too much value over just using a laser sight and tracer ammo in your machine pistol/SMG/AR.
if you're taking cyber, then its well worth getting a smartlink implanted/cybereyes for the +2, but a +1 in goggles/glasses for the money doesn't seem worth it when you can just use a laser sight for 125 + tracer to help with accuracy.
obviously depends on your build + needs but i find cash is always the tightest part of the build for an adept at anything that doesn't have Human (1) as priority E.

Speech
Thought
Matrix
Astral
Mentor

OneofSorrow

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 116
« Reply #8 on: <05-20-14/2113:42> »
Having been playing a Gun Adept since my little group got together to play a group I'm going to throws this out there.  Bullets don't hurt spirits.  So with that in mind you want to be a gun adept  things you are going to want to prioritize, namely agility.  Max that out, I picked a elf to play and then basically worked out my stats from there.  Next I picked skills as B and Magic as C, in my opinion either of these two can be switched, I wanted more skills to play with because the background for my character was Ex-Ghost so I wanted to be more skilled.  Now if you got maxed agility then you want to pick a fire arm, for gun adepts I recommend automatics because of assault rifles for going loud and heavy, machine pistols for when you need to be covert, and submachine guns for anything inbetween.  Now if you want you can go long arms and be a legendary sniper pulling off some amazing shots or you can duel wield pistols and go the traditional gun-fu style.  It is all in what you want to play, I've played two gun adepts in my time one that duel wielded pistols and had a high unarmed skill and one that was purely automatic and pistols.  As far as adept powers go, my father once told me to win wars you have to be the fastest with the mostest.  So Improved Reflexes....Max it, more actions means more bullets going down range and more hurt you can lay with your firearms, accuracy is what you are going to want next, higher accuracy means more dice that could be added to your firearms limit, then there is improved attributes and ability, improve attribute because you'll increase your agility and that'll improve alot of other stats, like gymnastics, sneaking, and locksmith (I play a rogue, can you tell?)  And improve ability because that adds more dice to your chosen firearm and that means more dice with more chances of dealing large amounts of damage for one power point you can basically get up to 2 points in your preferred weapon.  When you have picked your firearm do what any good melee adept would do and treat that weapon like a extension of your body, try and modify it to your taste.  My gun adept has a Yamaha Raiden tricked out with a under the barrel weight, gas vent 3, personalized grip, weapon commlink, shock pad and because I'm paranoid a personal safety system with electro shocker so no one can use my own gun.  That is when I'm going heavy and loud, when wanting to be subtle I use a Ingram Smart Gun cause it fits under trenches with a personalized grip, fire grip and gas vent 3, or Ares Crusaders with personalized grip and gas vent 3 and silencers and duel wield them, and because of run and gun I can use the Ares Execution and fit into a suitcase for more covert stuff.  My chosen field for her is automatics, you can tell.)  Recoil is a mother however so when you pick your gun modify modify modify, you're going to want a Gas Vent 3, with run and gun you're going to want a fore-grip or something to weight the barrel cause you'll either being using burst fire or full auto if you are going to going automatics so you are going to want to compensate because the more you fire the more it will add up.   You're going to also want to have more than ONE type of ammo, from ADPS for armor targets, to capsule or stick-and-shock for non-lethal, keep with you multiple ammo for multiple situations.  Ejecting a smart gun clip is a free action and inserting one is a simple, so you can still fire a burst or full auto burst when you slam in a new clip.  If you got armor that has gear access it is another free action and if you have nimble fingers that is a free action without gear access.  As much as you may loath it and I need to mention when you get into more dangerous encounters, with spirits or bug spirits, your ammo isn't going to hurt them, so you'll be relying on your shaman to deal the hurt.  So for thinking of the future and not wanting to feel useless you might want to pick up astral perception and maybe a melee weapon or unarmed combat so that you won't be sitting around feeling useless as the shaman hurls fireballs or power bolts and your bullets wiz through spirits like they are nothing. 
« Last Edit: <05-20-14/2123:45> by OneofSorrow »

Fedifensor

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
« Reply #9 on: <05-21-14/1053:28> »
There are many different ways to go with an Adept, but I decided on a simple but versatile build for my daughter's character.

Priorities:
A - Attributes (24)
B - Race (Elf, 6 special attribute points)
C - Skills (28/2)
D - Magic (2) [will use 4 special attribute points to get to 6]
E - Resources (6000 nuyen)

I plan to post this in my Missions-Legal Characters thread, but the core of the character is max agility with Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and the adept powers Improved Agility 3 and Improved Reflexes 2.  Starting agility of 11, which gives 12 dice with any weapon you buy at skill 1 for two measly Karma.  This allows the character to become skilled in a wide variety of exotic weapons very cheaply.  However, her main skill is Pistols (Semi-Auto) 6, giving her 20 dice with any semi-auto pistol that has a laser sight.

Initiation will be a priority after character creation, to raise Improved Reflexes to 3 and Improved Agility to 4.

Kincaid

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2623
« Reply #10 on: <05-21-14/1126:55> »
This is a point that perhaps got lost in another min/max thread, but people should be careful about diminishing returns when designing a character, especially in a game with limits.  Going from 22 to 24 dice won't actually do all that much for your character, even more so if he picks up Adept Centering (Trash-Talking) at some point.  Optimization involves proficiency at more than one mechanic; over-committing your resources into a single mechanic makes for less optimized characters.  It's all about ROI.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

PunkxRonin

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 7
« Reply #11 on: <05-22-14/0530:11> »
Thanks guys, lots of good tips and build ideas. It's helped a lot. I love Shadowrun by character creation comes across as intimidating some times. Its very easy to make a character spread too thin, or overly focused to the point of excluding all other things. So the help is greatly appreciated.

I'm working on the character to help me flesh him out more. I don't want him to end up just the guy with an amazing dice pool. Playing a dull character is part of the reason I'm writing a new one in the first place.

So I think I have settled on him being an Elf. I'm in the mood to play one and it fits with the theme/tone I'm looking for. I'm thinking he's probably from money, and has lived a bit of a privileged live. Being born an Elf, into a wealthy family and an Adept has sort of gone to his head. I'm thinking his parents are either Corp or their from Tir Tairngire and some what influential.  Where would I look to get more info on Tir Tairngire and Elf culture in the north west in general to expand on this idea?  I'm thinking he's been cut-off from his privileged lifestyle for some reason. Maybe his parents think it's time for him to "grow up" and settle down into some thing more respectable, or he's outright done some thing to alienate them.

I'm trying to figure out what he does when he's not shooting things/being a runner. What would be some things a cocky youth that doesn't have the greatest long-term planning skills do in Seattle for a thrill? There's always the standard Clubbing, drugs, urban exploration, maybe some base jumping but looking for less obvious ideas.

Lucean

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
« Reply #12 on: <05-22-14/0655:39> »
My gun adept has a Yamaha Raiden tricked out with a under the barrel weight, gas vent 3, personalized grip, weapon commlink, shock pad and because I'm paranoid a personal safety system with electro shocker so no one can use my own gun.  That is when I'm going heavy and loud, when wanting to be subtle I use a Ingram Smart Gun cause it fits under trenches with a personalized grip, fire grip and gas vent 3, or Ares Crusaders with personalized grip and gas vent 3 and silencers and duel wield them, and because of run and gun I can use the Ares Execution and fit into a suitcase for more covert stuff.  My chosen field for her is automatics, you can tell.) 

So for thinking of the future and not wanting to feel useless you might want to pick up astral perception and maybe a melee weapon or unarmed combat so that you won't be sitting around feeling useless as the shaman hurls fireballs or power bolts and your bullets wiz through spirits like they are nothing.

So you have a Raiden and complain about not being able to hurt spirits? It is automatically able to hurt Force 6 spirits, APDS hurts F9 with meager 2 net hits.
Even your other weapons have no problem with the right ammunition. If APDS is too expensive or too rare, switch to Stick'n Shock for your smaller weapons and use APDS only with the Raiden.
So with Stick'n Shock loaded:
Ares Crusader: 5P, -5AP -> against F6 you need 3 net hits, spirit rolls with BOD +7 (12-5) and gets 4 hits granted. Looks quite close, but bursts reduce the dodge pool, and you only need 1 damage to improve your chances against them.
Ingram Smart: 6P, -5AP -> same, but one hit less needed for higher spirits and against F6 the chance to inflict the first point of damage is bigger.

Yamaha Raiden with APDS: 11P, -6 AP; F6 rolls BOD +6 and gets only 3 hits. Well, here you are actually able to one-shot them. F8 rolls BOD +10 with 5 autohits, which also should result in damage with each connecting burst.

PS: But since I have no experience with "Bug Queens" from the other thread and the expected Force and BODy of these kinds of spirits, I might be off by a bit.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9944
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #13 on: <05-22-14/0709:08> »
There's a difference between piercing and hurting though, due to the auto-hits. A Force-6 Spirit with 6 Body would resist an AP -6 attack with 6+6 dice and 6/2 auto-hits, for 7 average soak. The Raiden is at 11P/-6, so would do 5 damage average with 1 net hit. Against a Force 8 with Body 8 you'd be at 8+10 dice for average 6 hits, and 10/2 = 5 auto-hits, 11 damage soaked on average.

So against normal Spirits you'll do fine with APDS, against really tough ones you're screwed. But you won't be able to hit them with melee either.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Lucean

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
« Reply #14 on: <05-22-14/0739:46> »
We rarely face higher than Force 6 and also don't bring those with us, so maybe it is a table thing.

So against normal Spirits you'll do fine with APDS, against really tough ones you're screwed. But you won't be able to hit them with melee either.

This is the important part, I think. Hitting should be easier with FA bursts, and if you don't already have a good melee skill, the needed investments might be not worth it.