[Poindexter]

as far as i understand, counterspelling has two uses
1- adding to your magic defense pool and/or that of your friends
2- "dispelling" a permanent or lingering spell cast on something/somewhere/someone by another spellcaster.

now,  spellcasting foci
 "add dice equal
to their Force to any Counterspelling attempt, as long as
the countered spell is in the same category as the focus.
It also adds its Force to your spell defense pool."

so, say ive got counterspelling 4 and magic 4 and a combat counterspell focus 4.

does the phrase "counterspelling attempt" mean only the 2nd use i've listed above or does it mean both?
if it means both, why is the phrase, "It also adds its Force to your spell defense pool" needed?


i feel like im missing something.

lil help?

[Poindexter]

like, can i now toss around 8 dice worth of magic defenses for my buddies or do i only get that bonus when im trying to "dispell" something?

[Mirikon]

A Counterspelling focus adds its Force to your Spell Defense pool, meaning a mage with Counterspelling 4, Magic 4, and a Force 4 Counterspelling (Manipulation) focus would have 8 dice of Spell Defense to split up per turn.

When dispelling a sustained or quickened Manipulation spell or ritual, you would have 12 dice to roll on the counterspelling test to end the spell. Against any other category of spell or ritual, you would still have 8 dice.

In the future, there may be additional ways to use counterspelling, specifically when the magic book comes out, as there were in past editions. I expect they'll go into what use (if any) a counterspelling focus is for those expanded uses in that book.

[Poindexter]

A Counterspelling focus adds its Force to your Spell Defense pool, meaning a mage with Counterspelling 4, Magic 4, and a Force 4 Counterspelling (Manipulation) focus would have 8 dice of Spell Defense to split up per turn.

When dispelling a sustained or quickened Manipulation spell or ritual, you would have 12 dice to roll on the counterspelling test to end the spell. Against any other category of spell or ritual, you would still have 8 dice.

In the future, there may be additional ways to use counterspelling, specifically when the magic book comes out, as there were in past editions. I expect they'll go into what use (if any) a counterspelling focus is for those expanded uses in that book.

this is how i was hoping it worked.

thank you for your time, sir/ma'am.

[Poindexter]

semi-related question: Say my only magical skill is counterspelling and thats all i ever intend to get.
are reagents of any use to me?

it seems they are not.

[Lucean]

No, you can use them for Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting, Summoning and Binding. Banishing could be possible, but sounds not reasonable.

[Poindexter]

nother question:
Say ive got 2 active foci for counterspelling, one at rank 4 and one at rank 2. I only get the +4 from the highest one, right? i don't imagine they'd stack, would they?

[Michael Chandra]

Say you have 6 Counterspelling, 8 Magic, a Force 4 Counterspelling Focus (Combat) and a Force 2 Counterspelling Focus (Manipulation).

Your Dispelling pool against Manipulation would be Counterspelling 6 + Magic 8 + Focus 2.

Your Spell Defense pool, however, ignores your Magic. You would have 6 non-specific Spell Defense dice, 2 manipulation spell defense dice and 4 combat spell defense dice. It is not clear whether the one-focus-per-pool limit applies to the Spell Defense pool, or specific Spell Defense application dicepools. I asked but Aaron didn't give a clear answer. On one hand it's called a pool of dice, on the other hand you use different dicepools for each spell defense act. So I'm afraid it's a GM call.

Say you get hit by a Manipulation spell and use the 2 dice from the Focus and 4 of your generic pool. You then get hit by a Combat spell. Scenario one would be "you used a Manipulation Focus before, so no using the Combat Focus now", leaving you with 2 generic dice. Scenario two would be having 2 generic and 4 combat-focus dice left.

The one-focus-per-test limit would still apply if you had 2 Counterspell (Combat) Force 2 foci (you had one before and got a second). To be able to use both, even in scenario two where two foci can contribute to your total spell defense, you'd have to use one against a combat spell and the other against another.

Since the foci add their Force to your Spell Defense Pool, their bonus will of course not apply on every test, so you can't go "I apply the extra dice on each spell defense test".

Reagents can be used in Dispelling, but not in Spell Defense, to use the Reagents limit instead of your [Astral] limit.

[SunRunner]

A counter spell focus adds its force to your spell defense pool and is not limited by spell type. It can only add its Force to a counter-spelling attempt of the appropriate spell type.

Also on Pg 318 the last sentence of the General Foci rules says

 "Regardless of the number of bonded foci you have, only one focus may add its Force to a dice pool for any given test."

Now you can try and rules layer around it  "if you use your combat counter-spell dice vs combat spell A and your manipulation counter-spell dice vs manipulation spell B each foci only added its dice to 1 test." shenanigans but I think the RAI is pretty clear at the start of the turn you get a counter spell dice pool of X, where X = Counter spell skill + Force counter spell Foci ( so obviously you pick your highest force) after that your pool is set for the turn and you cant change it until it refreshes at the start of the next turn.

Or at least thats how I think it should be played based on the wording and going for some game balance.

Now nothing is stopping you from having both foci active and using both foci in the same turn for appropriate dispelling attempts. Although I will point out that combat school spells are all instant and thus not really subject to counter spell attempts.

[Michael Chandra]

Now you can try and rules layer around it  "if you use your combat counter-spell dice vs combat spell A and your manipulation counter-spell dice vs manipulation spell B each foci only added its dice to 1 test." shenanigans but I think the RAI is pretty clear

It's not. Let me explain why not.

In SR4, Counterspelling was PER SPELL. No Spell Defense Pool you split. So each time you 'spell-defensed', it was with a completely-fresh pool.
In SR4, the no-adding-multiple-to-same-dicepool rule thus only applied to the same Counterspelling defense, and of course what the rule mostly exists for, namely no adding-tons-of-foci for one Spellcasting/Summoning/Binding attempt and no stacking Spell/Spirit+Power foci.
So the same Counterspelling Focus would apply its bonus on every counterspelling test of the right type.

Now Spell Defense has changed, but the restriction hasn't really changed. So whether the existing restrictions were kept in mind with the altered rules, we don't know. Heck, I asked for official clarification, if it was as easy as you claim it to be I'd have expected Aaron to give an official answer to it. If they had stated it's a dicepool, rather than a pool of dice, then it also would have been very clear. But they didn't, and no official answer has been given on what you claim is a very simple question.

As such, there is NO clear RAI on it. The rules changed, but the formulation of the restriction hasn't changed enough. As such, it's unclear how existing rules with existing RAI should apply to the new case. Doesn't matter how much you bold the words, this issue remains, and until the FAQ actually answers the question, there is no clear intent and you can't just go and blindly accuse everyone noting it of rule-lawyering. Rulelawyering is when you argue Power Foci raise your actual Magic attribute, not when you say it's unclear which is intended in this scenario.

[Lucean]

Or at least thats how I think it should be played based on the wording and going for some game balance.

Now nothing is stopping you from having both foci active and using both foci in the same turn for appropriate dispelling attempts. Although I will point out that combat school spells are all instant and thus not really subject to counter spell attempts.

I think it would be rather unbalancing to not allow multiple foci per turn versus different schools of spells.
You have to get them, bind them, are limited in total force as well as total number and risk addiction, if you use too many at the same time.
These drawbacks far outweigh any possible abuse, which btw. I don't even see, as I wouldn't even think of using them.

So I suggest to trust Michael on this one.

[Michael Chandra]

If we're going into the gm-call part, then the arguments you name are indeed the ones that make it very likely for me to suggest erring on the wide side here. But I can't tell the desired intent from the rules, so don't dare make a position.