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Executive Order 17-321

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #45 on: <06-11-14/0355:33> »
... I see what you're trying to think, but I'm just astounded that you're trying to think it.  I don't disagree that the Air Cav was after Coleman, or that the USG didn't have the ability to grasp the radical (and I do mean radical change in the world).  I just can't conceive of the idea that you might be thinking that the Great Ghost Dance wasn't functional at the time.  Redondo Peak was GGD action, with enough left over to command tornados to swat down the Air Cav.  The 'freaky weather' and 'uncanny disturbances' and all the other Major Stuff that was happening was the Great Ghost Dance at work.

But again, you're not following the timeline.  The Quad Peak Eruption action wasn't something that was just done on a whim, or something they needed to build up to.  Coordination, simultaneous smaller Dances, whatever - yes, those are good explanations, but firing off all four volcanos was not something that the NAN needed to work up to.  That they could have done this at any time is strongly suggested by the timeline, by the continued use of the Great Ghost Dance for 'freaky weather' etc., by the third book in the first trilogy of SR fiction, when it's utilized again.  The Quad Peak Eruption was orchestrated because the NAN war parties were outnumbered and outgunned by a finally-assembled force that would have been capable of wiping them out in detail, instead of the steady hunt-and-peck conflicts that were keeping them unbalanced.

Howling Coyote popped the lid off that, and the Dance kept the pressure up when black ops teams and strike forces went after him.  The Quad Peak Eruption was a psy-ops action, and it was a very effective one.  But it wasn't the first use of the Great Ghost Dance.
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Sendaz

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« Reply #46 on: <06-11-14/0618:14> »
Okay, but following the timeline why wait 9 months from the signing of the Exec Order before bringing out the Quad Peak Eruption (QuPeE)?

You mention it was a psy-op action, but how much more impressive would it have been to have pulled off the QuPeE on the day they initially signed the Executive Action or when the Resolution of 2016 was passed by the 'gleeful' Congress?

Picture the president announcing the implementation of Executive Order 17-321 only to have Daniel break in on the newsfeed with the single word 'No.' with video feeds of the four volcanos going off in concert in the background. Or even a few days after if they didn't know it was coming.

Why wait until the military finally has its forces together? They were taking a hell of a chance by not going for the Main Event sooner.

Time was on the Government's side.  The FBI and CIA were already integrating magical assets into their ranks.  How long before the military would follow suit?

Hell, a magical club had opened in Minnesota the previous year and Charles University in Prague, Czech Republic, has established the first hermetic studies curriculum. The military is not afraid to bring in civilian specialists when they need them and if seriously outgunned in the mana corner I suspect there was a upsurge in black op magic projects trying to get something that could work for them, though I bet a lot were simple boondoggles, what with the government being what it is. ;)

What if along the way someone in the military/government had pulled their collective thumbs out and successfully integrated more magical forces or spirits forbid another third party player joined the field and assisted with knowledge in the same way Thais helped provide information on the Great Ghost Dance to the Native Americans. 

Imagine the military mounting a counter ritual,( can't call it a Dance because.. well, you know us white folk can't dance :P ) effectively neutralizing the wacky weather and volcano threat (not sure if possible, but am sure there could have been some wrangling for those).  Even if they could not take control of those magical forces for themselves, just denying them to the NAN would have meant US troops could and would have moved in on those outgunned and outnumbered forces you mentioned.

I am not saying there was no serious ritual GGD mojo being slung up until QuPeE, but I do wonder why they waited until they did for the big event that really convinced everyone about magic and could the US have done something up til then to have broken/stopped it?  And that is why I was wondering about the whole Exec Order thing, was it being used with the intent of trying to decimate enough of the Native population so that they could not make further effective use of the GGD since we now know it took a hefty toll on lives to fuel it.

Edit:  Of course the irony is if the president had not issued the ExO, they could have probably dragged their feet in lengthy negotiations/talks/arguing over finer points of law and debate with the tribes buying them time to be playing magical R&D of their own.

« Last Edit: <06-11-14/0738:47> by Sendaz »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #47 on: <06-11-14/0759:13> »
Why wait? Do you know how much time it takes to gather hundreds of willing sacrifices, get them to a power site without being discovered, and prepare and set off a massive magical ritual? Doing major ritual magic isn't like throwing a manabolt! Especially when you're talking about a time when most people don't even know how the stuff works!
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Sendaz

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« Reply #48 on: <06-11-14/0817:34> »
Why wait? Do you know how much time it takes to gather hundreds of willing sacrifices, get them to a power site without being discovered, and prepare and set off a massive magical ritual? Doing major ritual magic isn't like throwing a manabolt! Especially when you're talking about a time when most people don't even know how the stuff works!
Yes, but Wyrm does point out the following...

The Quad Peak Eruption action wasn't something that was just done on a whim, or something they needed to build up to.  Coordination, simultaneous smaller Dances, whatever - yes, those are good explanations, but firing off all four volcanos was not something that the NAN needed to work up to.  That they could have done this at any time is strongly suggested by the timeline, by the continued use of the Great Ghost Dance for 'freaky weather' etc., by the third book in the first trilogy of SR fiction, when it's utilized again.  The Quad Peak Eruption was orchestrated because the NAN war parties were outnumbered and outgunned by a finally-assembled force that would have been capable of wiping them out in detail, instead of the steady hunt-and-peck conflicts that were keeping them unbalanced.
  Going with what Wyrm has pointed out in that they probably had sufficient numbers and coordination all ready to go why did they still hold off and not play the QuPeE sooner then?
Freaky weather wasn't convincing people, they thought it more a fluke or the natives just following the weather, not unlike how we still argue about global warming and such. 
The military probably understood and they were probably desperate to find something to counter it but simply lacked the means.
If the Natives had laid out the big cards sooner, they might well have saved more lives along the way, including the Kiowa tribe the Cheyenne nationalists tricked the Army into bombing.

Edit:They knew they were outnumbered and outgunned (on a physical weapon level, mojo aside) from the start so waiting for the army to get all gathered up when they could have convinced people sooner that they were not to be trifled with seems odd.
« Last Edit: <06-11-14/0821:24> by Sendaz »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #49 on: <06-11-14/0824:02> »
Why didn't they haul out the big guns?  Why should they?  Yes, there were people they needed to put into place, and undoubtedly people the NAN shamans needed to train.  But for the NAN, well, you don't whip out your biggest gun in response to a threat by the other guy; you pull it just when the other guy thinks he's got the upper hand. 

As for the US military putting together their own ritual to disrupt the GGD - this isn't 'hey, we've developed a new weapon' sort of stuff.  This is 'there's an entirely new branch of physical law that we've never heard of'.  I've never heard of either of your examples, but though yeah, they do sound likely, without major 'ancient' support (such as, I dunno, a Great Dragon founding your hermetic studies university program) it's still a matter of 'one-on-one' work only five or six years after the fact.  Sure, I have no doubt that as soon as this stuff went off, every military and law enforcement and spy group in the world had their spotters out for someone who could do that sort of work.  And I'm sure they found some people who were willing, whether among their own forces (gotta be some, right?) or someone willing to sign up.

But what you're proposing for the UCAS - major military magical capability and action - is like going from Wright Brothers to an F/A-18 Super Hornet operating off a carrier deck in under a decade.  People without tutoring - namely the NAN (who had Aina's kid) and the Aztlaners (who had that corrupted dragon) are at that point still only beginning to learn how to reliably work in concert without blowing themselves up, and that's for the best of them.  You're demanding ground-breaking doctoral-level competency from people who've barely gotten through a four-year program, not to mention requiring them to figuratively run out in front of a rampaging tank and try to take it down with a judo throw.  It just ain't gonna happen.

As for why the NAN held off, it's because there was a whole shadow war going on.  They may not have needed the time to collect and build up a big strike - they could have done that at any time - but it's also a matter of a) getting enough time away from the hunter/killer black ops groups from SEAL Team Six (etc.) and the Rangers and the FBI, etc. etc., b) throwing the hammer they have at a group that maybe is threatening their own people already, and/or c) needing the right time to do it.  I mean, you'll notice that the Quad Peak Eruption didn't stop them hunting for him right away; it took those nine months (and three of those in negotiations, presumably with a cease-fire in place) to grind to a halt, still with frequent GGD-driven weather strikes etc. against (generally) military targets.

The NAN took their first psy-ops shot with Redondo Peak - the magical equivalent of a pretty serious FAE.  That went off pretty well (so to speak), but it had one or two pretty nasty side-effects - such as the Executive Order, which basically said 'fine, screw you too - we'll shoot every Native American we can find.'  And the smaller (per se) GGDances they were using worked just fine screwing with the military operations, they didn't need to go totally bonkers, but they couldn't blow every caravan off the face of the earth.  It did, after all, take three years plus for the military to manage to get the pieces into place - this in a world where planning and assembling this should take at most three months, and moving a military group across the country need only take three days at the most.

You can say that the guerilla war was their second psy-ops action, because the US Armed Forces still didn't have a clear threat to deal with.  Look at what's happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, then put it in the US West - all of the US West - and add in the fact that there are significant portions of two entire states who have shown themselves to be willing and able to conceal the NAN fighters in their basements and guest rooms, an entire group of people who have a pretty damn good memory about their own persecutions by 'regular' Americans, and who see Native Americans as long-lost brothers. (Literally.  For which actions the NAN decides not to kick the LDS Church out - I got the timeline wrong originally.)

Then, when the USA hammer has been finally assembled, the NAN whips out what's the magical equivalent of four multi-megaton-scale nukes and trips the switch - and whether or not he sent an electronic or paper missive, it definitely sends a message of 'look, assholes, we got our kind of nukes too.  Do you really wanna come play??'  And eventually the threat of that sort of beatdown happening to any city in America (*cough* DC *cough*) is the sort of thing that finally puts the diplomats in Denver, hammering out a peace agreement.

Howling Coyote kept his eye on the strategic plan, and his boiled down to 'smack them hard, keep them reeling, and when they're getting tired but think that you're getting tired and think they've got a chance, hammer them even harder than the first time.'  And it worked - in part probably because the military was tired and frustrated with getting into skirmishes in the hills and mountains where they couldn't respond effectively, when they had no ready support, when they could only infrequently manage to locate their enemy; also probably in part because the citizenry was getting tired and afraid of all of it.  A year and a half was tough, but the US citizens had still shown the aggression to elect a hawk for President; they would have lynched him if he'd backed down immediately.  Another year and a half, and no sign of victory in sight, and then all of a sudden wham - not just one, but four volcanos.  Who knows what's next at that point, you know??

A brilliant campaign, brilliantly executed.

EDIT: A couple of things.  One, they already knew where the powersite(s) was/were, and it's implied that the Dances happened all at the same site.  Second, it's similarly implied that the drain was spread amongst all the dancers, and was not automatically - or even frequently - lethal.  (Blood magic may get an additional kick from the actual death, but death isn't necessary if you have a big enough pool to draw from.)  Third, pretty much every Native American would have been highly well motivated to volunteer - it's either death in prison, death resisting 'arrest', death on the battlefield, or death dancing.  If you can't fight back on the battlefield but you still want to help, and it isn't necessarily going to be lethal (just 'dancing until you collapse from exhaustion'), then ... why not volunteer??

And Mirikon, remember that the Dance was in steady, regular use throughout those three years.  The 'weird weather' that frequently disrupted military movements, wrecked bases, or whatnot was Great Ghost Dance action...
« Last Edit: <06-11-14/0832:26> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
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Sendaz

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« Reply #50 on: <06-11-14/0841:18> »
I will be the first to admit that psy-ops are not my forte and your explanation for the wearing down of government forces and pulling the ace out only at the end just when the gov thinks it is getting it all together for their turn at bat does seems like a very effective tactic and makes sense in the overall scheme.

Thank you. :)
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« Reply #51 on: <06-11-14/1037:57> »
There is some evidence that the USA did have some magical resources of their own.

The only US mage I know of is Ursula Mahr. Who is mentioned in the Denver boxset. In 2017 he learned Zebulon's true name and attempted to bind her, to use her against the AmerIndians. Robert Greene however, attempted to do the same exact thing at the same exact time, and they ended up fracturing Zebulon and were promptly killed by her two parts.

So the idea that the Executive Order was called to attempt to stop the Great Ghost Dance is theoretically possible. But who really knows how much knowledge the USA had about magic at the time. Maybe Mahr was their only awaken agent.

ChewyGranola

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« Reply #52 on: <06-11-14/1232:53> »
Up until now I thought the PoD for Shadowrun was 1989. I now realize that it make much more sense for the PoD to be earlier in the 20th century or even before, with the differences really becoming noticeable in the 90s and later

I don't understand why people thought me naive. My reasoning was based on what I think is a valid interpretation. I never stated that people are inherently good or something. I suppose people do like to assume...

Anyways, my questions are answered, and future questions will be in canon context only. No problem! I appreciate the answers.



In my case, it was not so much thinking you are naive as not certain why you were not understanding the answers I had given as being towards their history being much more divergent than our's on lessons learned. Admittedly, that's an expression problem on my end; I stopped replying at one point because I was getting frustrated and just sat back and watched. For that, you have my apology.

Thanks! And for my part, I didn't understand why you didn't understand what I was saying. Stupid limitations of text. Anyways, no beef here. I appreciate the apology, but was never mad at anyone. Virtual hug!!

Nath

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« Reply #53 on: <06-12-14/0831:33> »
The earliest in-story departure that I could point to was actually in 1986, and that's in the original Shadowrun book, so yeah ... It's just a different world.
Pretty specific, but the Rigger Black Book has the EuroFighter Aircraft (EFA) built by BAC, Dassault and MBB and entering service in 2020. This suggests the Eurofighter project didn't went the way it did in real life. First, BAC, the British Aircraft Corporation, had actually been merged with Hawker Siddeley and Scottish Aviation to create British Aerospace under the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act of 1977. Then, Dassault left the project in 1981 to build the Rafale alone. But there's still room in the timeline for BAE to change its name back to BAC, and Dassault to join a new Eurofighter project due to enter service in 2020.

Also, for some reason, Shadowrun has an Aztechnology Group subsidiary called Hawker-Siddley, with only one -e-. So possibly in Shadowrun history, the Deasy Motor Car Manufaturing Company changed its name to Siddley-Deasy Motor Car Company in 1912 (which in turn would imply the managing director's name was different as well, going back to its ancestors...).

Take a look at the Sixth World Almanac, starting on p. 24, with an excerpt from the address by Daniel Coleman, nee Howling Coyote. He gives that on 10 June 2014; the Great Ghost Dance blows the top off Redondo Peak on 12 July 2014.  During 2015, Thunder Tyee runs amok up around the Seattle area (eventually leading to that trideo show we all know and love, "Tyee!!"), until you reach 2016 on p. 27: 'Excerpts from remarks of President William Jarman following the issuance of Executive Order 17-231'.  And in order to get there, President Garrety had to be assassinated on 15 October.  The elections happened on 8 November, and Jarman (the winner) was inaugurated on 9 November instead of after the customary three month wait.  (Which makes sense, really.  It USED to be something like five or six months.)  The Executive Order was actually his first official act, on 11 November 2016 - a year and a half after Daniel Howling Coyote's ultimatum, and after almost a year and a half of the GGD being put to use.
The Sixth World Almanac got some things wrong, and this is one of them. According to Shadowrun 1st edition, page 15, William Jarman did issue Executive Order "immediately upon taking office," and the Congress ratified once month later. But The Neo-anarchist Guide to North America states William Jarman was Jesse Garrety vice-president for four years, ran and won the 2016 election ("campaigning stridently against his predecessor's "inhumane" actions in dealing with the Sovereign American Indian Movement"). Then, on December 12 Garretty was assassinated. Jarman was inaugurated in 2016 because he was vice-president at the time, not because he was president-elect. However, the one month before Congress ratification put it in the hand of the 115th Congress. 6WA has Garretty assassination occurring on October 15 for some reason (possibly based on another contradicting source, but I don't know where to find it), completely ignores the fact that Jarman was vice-president, and should have been immediately inaugurated and started a term, acting in full capacity, no matter what the election results were, instead resorting to advancing the inauguration of the president-elect for him to be able to issue an executive order before the end of 2016. But it would also implies the 114th Congress ratified it before the end of the year, a few days before the 115th Congress' session.

EDIT : corrected a mistake regarding Congress ratification.
« Last Edit: <06-12-14/0859:09> by Nath »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #54 on: <06-12-14/0850:23> »
... this is what I get for not going back to the original source, y'know?    :P  Thanks, Nath.
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ChewyGranola

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« Reply #55 on: <06-12-14/0916:44> »
So the earlier canon source is assumed to be the "correct" one?

Nath

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« Reply #56 on: <06-12-14/0952:14> »
So the earlier canon source is assumed to be the "correct" one?
See my post on the nature of canon.

Chances is we won't get anything like official answer until a new sourcebook that cover the topic comes out, if it ever happens. That day it'll depend on who get to write the part. There are freelancers who consider first edition are the holy books of Shadowrun, and whatever came out for third and much of fourth edition (until they started writing for it, that is) was heresy. But it can be also someone involved in the writing of Sixth World Almanac who will refuse to acknowledge he could have been wrong. Wait and see.

If it was up to me, I would discard 6WA, which contains mistakes on a number of other topics. But it could be considered an equally valid opinion that the most recent book should take precedence, as chances are a greater number of gamemasters and authors may be currently using it as a reference (although the Neo-anarchist Guide to North America is still available as a PDF).

For the sake of this discussion, since we were debating on whether background introduced by the very first edition of Shadowrun made sense, I'd say it would more logical to consider the original writing.

Nath

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« Reply #57 on: <06-12-14/1136:23> »
Rereading some books, I noticed that both Shadowrun first edition corebook and The Native American Nations names the "Resolution Act of 2016". Which implies it was the 114th Congress that voted it in 2016.

If Garrety was assassinated on December 12, and Jarman inaugurated then because he was vice-president, then the Congress would have to ratify Executive Order 17-321 no more than three weeks after it was promulgated, rather than one month.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #58 on: <06-12-14/1241:36> »
BTW, and this is glossing over A LOT, but the legality of declaring total war on Native American tribes is also distinct from actions against certain ethnic or religious groups because it's the equivalent of declaring war on any other sovereign states.