[GauntZero]

Hy Chummers,

Can you think of reasons to run a security host silent ?

It gives the host -2 on all matrix actions (also its IC), and anyone who would get a mark on a slaved device would also get a mark on him anyway (and therefore would automatically spot him).
Also, a matrix perception on any slaved device would show that the host exists (not spotting it, but being warned of its existence).

So...what good is it to run such a host silent ?

[Namikaze]

Because the host gets to use it's rating x 2 to hide from intrepid hackers.  The best way to not get hacked is to not be seen in the first place.

[Xenon]

Can you think of reasons to run a security host silent ?

Not really. No...

[FasterN8]

Think of an MCT Zero zone where there's more than one host with security devices.  One host for the obvious security devices and another (hidden one) for the secret-police host that uses hidden cameras and microdrones.  Those slaved devices and drones would use the sleaze of the host to resist your matrix perception, and even if you gained access to that host and you knew how many slaved devices there were, you'd still need to trace them all or access each one to make sure none were pointed at your team.

[GauntZero]

Big problem is that once a slaved device gets a mark, the hidden host will be spotted too...

Would it work to run all slaved devices also silent ? Would they use the hosts attributes to stay hidden ? Omg...in this case you could never find them, if not directly connected.

[Xenon]

Would they use the hosts attributes to stay hidden ?

Yes.
But all hosts have the sleaze rating. The host does not need to run silent itself for the slaved device to use the host sleaze rating when defending against a matrix perception test.

There are reasons to keep a host in the dark, but the host you use for slaving cameras, maglocks and elevators located in more restricted areas of your facility to does not benefit from running silent if you ask me....

[GauntZero]

Isnt Matrix Perception only opposed when running silent ?

Otherwise I think there is no protection against anaylsis.

Furthermore...how can you find a silent host at all ? Per RAW you can only scan for hidden icons in your direct vicinity (100m) or inside a host.

But as hosts have no location...how could you ever find it.

I imagine scanning for hidden icons the following steps:

Step1: find out if any icon is hidden in your vicinity or inside a host. A succesful tests (1+ hits) gives you a number of hidden icons (but doesnt unhide them)

Step2: Unhide 1 icon. Usually this is done randomly, because you dont know which one it is. But I play it that way, that you may make the random number smaller, if you know something about the icon you want to unhide (more hits on step 1 or other background information).
E.g. if you know you search for a hidden Transys Avalon commlink, it should be easier than if you dont know anything at all.

Is that wrong ?

[Lobo]

The rules for finding silent icons outside 100m are fuzzy at best.

The general consensus (or at least what I have seen here, and how I play) is that if the icon is over 100m and running silent, you have to have some information about it.  The more information, the better.

If you have a commlink's LTG, then you could search for that commlink, even  if it was silent and over 100m.

If you knew you were looking for a smartgun within 2500 meters, you could search for that, although in that case each hit would give you the icon for one random smartgun in that range.  If you knew it was a pistol, it would narrow it down to pistols.  If you knew it was slaved to a specific commlink that you had spotted, then it would narrow it down further.

Once these results come in, you still then have to actually make a Matrix Perception test to see them - the first one simply tells you they are there.

We play that a silent host could only be spotted if you had information about it - and again, the more the better.  Simply searching for silent hosts is going to give you a ton of hits.

[GauntZero]

We really need some more specific rules in the upcoming matrix rulebook. A lot of the new matrix rules are really good, but there are many gaps that need to be filled.

Hosts in general, persona definitions & silent running are three such issues...

[Xenon]

Isnt Matrix Perception only opposed when running silent ?

Yes.

But a slaved device can run silent even if the master does not.
A slaved device does not need to run silent even if the master does.
If the master have a sleaze rating (a deck or a host) then the slaved device will benefit from it if it run silent and someone is trying to spot it.

A surveillance camera in the street corner will probably run silent. If it is not part of a PAN or WAN then it will only hide from your perception test with it's own device rating (this is probably the norm for a surveillance camera in a public spot). If it is part of a PAN then it will default to the owners Logic and if the master device in the PAN is a deck then it will also use the Sleaze rating of the deck (even if the deck is not running silent). If it is part of a WAN then it will instead default to host rating and host sleaze rating when hiding from the perception test (even if the host is not running silent).

Furthermore...how can you find a silent host at all ?

You automatically spot everything in the matrix you have a mark on.

If you mark a device that is slaved to the host you get a mark on the host as well.
If the owner invite you to take a mark on it then it will show up the same second you grab that mark.

You can probably find it with a matrix perception test as well, but to do that you need to know some feature of the hidden icon. If for example a device is slaved to it you could -depending on your reading- just ask your GM "I am trying to spot the master that this device is slaved to".

Maybe you can even ask your GM "I am trying to spot all silent running hosts on the Seattle Local Grid" and then start the tedious job of randomly trying to spot them one by one (similar to the guy in War Games that called all numbers within a local area code to create a list of phone numbers that had a computer modem on the other end and then he randomly went through the list)

I imagine scanning for hidden icons the following steps...

You need to know some feature of the icon you are looking for.

If you don't know anything about the icon(s) you are looking for then asking your GM "I am trying to spot all hidden icons in the vicinity of my deck" is still probably a valid question, but if there are more than one hidden icon within ~100 meters of your deck then then you need to pick them at random.

Depending on your reading another valid question would probably be "I am trying to spot all silent running smartgun icons that belong to the PAN of the street samurai in front of me".

[FasterN8]

Big problem is that once a slaved device gets a mark, the hidden host will be spotted too...

Would it work to run all slaved devices also silent ? Would they use the hosts attributes to stay hidden ? Omg...in this case you could never find them, if not directly connected.

That's right, but to locate all the security drones slaved to that host, you'd need to run trace icon on EACH drone (and possibly the fixed devices as well), since spotting an icon does not equate to knowing its physical location.  That's a lot of work to do while you're inside the spiders web (host) so to speak.  But this example is for an MCT security host so it's admittedly an extreme situation, most host wouldn't be so draconian.

[Xenon]

...but once you traced the physical location of a drone you can share it, in real time, to the augmented heads-up display of your entire team

[FasterN8]

Exactly. 

That is an awesome, awesome tactic for Hackers to use, but unless the Hacker is also a technomancer, OS becomes a very real and problematic issue when you have to find and track a large number of targets (because it requires 2 marks on each).