[Sir_Prometheus]

Mostly talking about the ways to switch things out for willpower for full defense.  Wouldn't just about every street sam /adept want to switch agility for willpower for full defense?  I think we're talking a 3 point swing pretty often, for just 3 karma, and these guys are the same one that have enough initiative that they can take the interrupt action easily.   

[Mirikon]

Nope. Any sammy that isn't an idiot will still invest at least something into Willpower, because that's where your Stun track comes from, and higher armor characters take more stun than physical.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I think it's pretty common to have an agi of 6 (or higher, with cyberware) and a willpower of say, 3.  So we're talking like a 3 point swing, at least. 

[Kincaid]

I haven't actually played in a game with R&G qualities yet, so I can't really base this on experience, but up to now, going Full Defense seems like a pretty rare thing for most characters, the only notable exception being slow, tank-y sams.  Most players want to alpha strike and taking the -10 hit to your initiative is a daunting proposition.  If FD is just used situationally, then the cost seems about right.

[prismite]

I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*

[Kincaid]

I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*

"Not in the face!"

[Sir_Prometheus]

Well yeah, this is kinda my point -- if you're a street sam with agi much higher than willpower (normal, willpower doesn't have to be a "dump stat") or sure, a face or an elven shaman with high charisma, these qualities are just obvious choices. 

I will also point out that if you are going first, you can always take your first action, alpha strike, THEN use full defense.

[Lucean]

-10 initiative can be a lot, if you don't start with an ambush. You have to make your first pass count, because you're giving the enemy two consecutive passes, which can be dangerous.

These qualities can be a no-brainer, but they cost karma, which might be needed for other things. I don't like builds where the primary purpose is only dodging. Offense is more important in finishing the opposition..

[Xenon]

(And no point in taking full defense before anyone actually attack you. It is an interrupt action after all...)



Your opponent might get two attacks in a row,  but just because you use full defense does not automatically make it so;

If you have 22 initiative and your opponent have 11 you will both act in the först initiative pass (you first). If you use full defense you will end up with 2 initiative score in the next initiative pass and your opponent will have 1. You both get to act in the second initiative pass and in this example you still get to act first in the second initiative pass as well.

[prismite]

Can you move, then take a simple action, then take FD? Would that be -10 or -20 on your initiative since you took a simple?

[FasterN8]

It would still only be -10 to your initiative.  It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC).  It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.

So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked).  The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I wont say if they are 'overpowered' or not, but I literally cringed when I saw the "Too Pretty" one. I had a player that had a 9 Charisma. *shutter*

I wasn't as bothered by agile defender or even perceptive defender, but really your passive presence makes it harder to be shot.  At the extreme levels where you have a fear aura or something maybe, but a 3 karma thing just doesn't pull it off for me.  I can see it as an adept power or piece of ware perhaps.  Or maybe since they went with the perception skill in one of the other qualities, the intimidate skill instead.   At this point yhy not your burly muscles make you harder to shoot, your logical mind, your intuitive nature so you can defense double dip with intuition etc. Once you go this route you minds as well go full 4e D&D and let people use whatever attribute they want. Your super scary burliness makes about as much sense as charisma.   

As a side note it is fairly abusable. While I don't think full dodge characters are awesome mainly because the idiocy of area of effect attacks in this edition, they usually don;t give up that much in offense as they are pretty damn fast as well frequently getting one more action so if they have to go to interrupt its not that bad.  At least willpower is not a dump stat, so it isn;t as bad as it could be.

[SunRunner]

I like them, they give non combat characters some viable defense options that can save them in bad situation. Your base defense is still set by reaction and intuition so it can be crappy but they are giving the mage/shaman/decker a decent low cost Ohh ShXt button. I have seen them in play and they dont over balance anyone, shure a Sam can swing 3 or 4 more defense dice out of them alot of the time but those dice only happen when they are full dodging and taking a -10 on initiative which means 1 less pass for the sam to shoot some body. It sounds really good on paper but in practice the runners are almost always out numbered and struggling with action economy anyways. The -1 per attack and the penalties from full auto and such can strip away those extra dice very quickly and still leave the target eating rounds. Active defense that cost IPs does not win fights in shadowrun, Putting rounds down range and dropping targets wins fights in shadowrun. Besides ultimately you can have a defense roll of 50 dice, it wont help you vs Grenades and other AOE attacks or direct combat spells or most critter powers. If they players really jack up their traditional defenses then the GM just needs to hit them with some of the alternative attacks. In all honesty the cumulative -1 per attack in a pass means that just adding a few more goons can cancel out the bonus if the GM is really having a problem making the players sweat every once in a while.

[Sir_Prometheus]

the "mage/shaman/decker " is the guy that's actually going to have a decent willpower, and won't be taking these qualities. 

[prismite]

It would still only be -10 to your initiative.  It's important to realize, as Xenon described, that using Full defense does not cost you your action phase in this or the next IP like it did in 4th edition (IIRC).  It only costs your initiative score, which indirectly might mean you have no more actions in this round, but maybe not.

So when you move, and take a simple action, you still have a simple action left which you don't have to use, but when your turn is done, you can then take full defense (but like Xenon said, it's silly to do this interrupt before you're attacked).  The interrupt action will cost you 10 and then the end of the IP will cost everyone 10 and thus begin the next IP.

Ah, I see my disconnect. My table uses the R&G alternative Initiative rule. -10 after your turn, not -10 after everyone goes.