[Bull]

Or just, you know, use paper and write down your upgrades.  *shrug*

[Spectre]

Or just, you know, use paper and write down your upgrades.  *shrug*

As someone who is basically the face of a Catalyst, this is the sort of flippant response that constantly reminds me that Catalyst does not bother to care about making something good or great, but is satisfied being mediocre or sub-par compared to other developers.

How about, when I ask you to consider making a set of very simple free pdfs that I can print out because I anticipate wanting to play your game multiple times, you say: "Not a bad idea. Let me run it up the ladder."

I don't give a damn if you actually run that up the ladder or not, just don't post this: Or just, you know, use paper and write down your upgrades.  *shrug*

Did you give everyone the bird while you were typing that out too?

[Bull]

Not trying to be flippant.  I just found the entire discussion to be a non-issue, honestly.  But that may be because I'm an old gamer, and come from a time before home computers and printers or even easy to access copy machines were a thing.  I used to hand-write out entire D&D and MSH and TMNT/Heroes Unlimited character sheets every time I made a new character.  So the idea of just jotting a few notes down because I don't want to use up the stickers just seems like an obvious, no-brainer, and simple choice.

It's been said that the base set will be coming with a bunch of each sticker, so that you won't run out.  It's also been said that there's a character packet coming out that will have a whole bunch more character sheets, and a whole bunch more stickers. 

Those are the options available.  Some folks don't like like that, so I was giving what I thought was am honest, simple answer.

I'm not involved with Crossfire in any way, except as someone who is very interested in the game.  It's entirely possible that CGL plans to release blank character cards that you can print out, I don't know.  You'll still have to write your upgrades down on these though, if they do.  So my comment stands.

I apologize if you took offense at my post.  Wasn't intended that way.

[Spectre]

I apologize if you took offense at my post.  Wasn't intended that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Gee, thanks.

But that may be because I'm an old gamer, and come from a time before home computers and printers or even easy to access copy machines were a thing.  I used to hand-write out entire D&D and MSH and TMNT/Heroes Unlimited character sheets every time I made a new character.  So the idea of just jotting a few notes down because I don't want to use up the stickers just seems like an obvious, no-brainer, and simple choice.

You justify your position by trying to 'out-gamer' me. Your job is supposed to make me want to buy your products, instead, you're the guy behind the counter at the FLGS criticizing my purchases and my play-style. This sort of behavior permeates a lot of the Shadowrun community unfortunately. This isn't the old days. Step up your game and go out of your way to make it better, not drag it down because 'that's how I did it in my day!'

It's entirely possible that CGL plans to release blank character cards that you can print out, I don't know.  You'll still have to write your upgrades down on these though, if they do.  So my comment stands.

The argument is that I don't want to use the stickers or the character sheets in the main box or the expansion, 1, because I am a collector of games, and games I like I want to keep in functional order; 2, it causes problems for future players of that character; and 3, I would love to just print out a character sheet for the sole purpose of writing my upgrades on them so that they can be aesthetically appealing to people at my game table, as well as disposable at the drop of the hat. So no, your comment does not stand.

I've attached a PACG character sheet as an example. So I ask, would you rather see something like that on the table, or a hand written sheet of lined paper with scratch on it?

[PeterSmith]

I apologize if you took offense at my post.  Wasn't intended that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Gee, thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism
See, I can play the Wiki game too!

Your job is supposed to make me want to buy your products...

No, Bull's job is to run the Missions program.

The argument is that I don't want to use the stickers or the character sheets in the main box or the expansion, 1, because I am a collector of games...for the sole purpose of writing my upgrades on them so that they can be aesthetically appealing to people at my game table...

Wait, which is it? Are you a collector of games, or are you a player of games?

I've attached a PACG character sheet as an example. So I ask, would you rather see something like that on the table, or a hand written sheet of lined paper with scratch on it?

I want to see people playing my games and having a good time doing so. If they can have fun out-of-the-box, they're having fun. If they're using scratchpads, great! If they kitbashed something together that looks nicer, more power to them. Because at the end of the day, as long as everybody is having fun, does it really matter how they are going about it?

[Spectre]

I apologize if you took offense at my post.  Wasn't intended that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Gee, thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism
See, I can play the Wiki game too!

Your job is supposed to make me want to buy your products...

No, Bull's job is to run the Missions program.

The argument is that I don't want to use the stickers or the character sheets in the main box or the expansion, 1, because I am a collector of games...for the sole purpose of writing my upgrades on them so that they can be aesthetically appealing to people at my game table...

Wait, which is it? Are you a collector of games, or are you a player of games?

I've attached a PACG character sheet as an example. So I ask, would you rather see something like that on the table, or a hand written sheet of lined paper with scratch on it?

I want to see people playing my games and having a good time doing so. If they can have fun out-of-the-box, they're having fun. If they're using scratchpads, great! If they kitbashed something together that looks nicer, more power to them. Because at the end of the day, as long as everybody is having fun, does it really matter how they are going about it?

Thanks for your opinion, Catalyst sycophant. I'll take it to heart, as what you've posted is clearly relevant to my suggestion that Catalyst be better than average. I desperately want to see Shadowrun be better. Do you?

[Namikaze]

I've attached a PACG character sheet as an example. So I ask, would you rather see something like that on the table, or a hand written sheet of lined paper with scratch on it?

Wow, the character sheet is really small.  If that's what I have instead of hand-written notes, I'll take the notes instead. 

[PiXeL01]

I didn't take offense  to Bull's comment and it actually reminded me of "the old days" of Hero Quest and what not.
I had thought of writing it down, but assumed there might be too many details to keep track off. So maybe a check list instead? Ideas ideas...

I also STILL write all my characters down on a sheet, even if I generate them through a program so I guess I'm old too

[Emperors Grace]

Eh, i don't see the issue either.

After hearing stickers, my first thought was to stck them to chipboard and make tokens out of them.

Cost is a few cents and a few minutes.

Bull's post doesn't change my plans but it does bring back some memories....

[FastJack]

Please keep your language polite and constructive. There is no need for insults or inflammatory language in your posts

[Spectre]

Please keep your language polite and constructive. There is no need for insults or inflammatory language in your posts

And hence the problem. Imagine if you will for a moment that I wasn't someone who picked up Shadowrun 1st edition in 7th grade and fell in love with it and have supported it for more than 1/2 of my life, instead imagine I was someone who has never heard of Shadowrun, but saw the dice tower Origins review of Crossfire and thought that it looked really interesting. So I wander on over to the forums and register, so that I can express my feeling about how I don't think stickers are the best choice. Only to have a flippant dismissal from an employee of the company, followed up by a condescending apology which assumes that I cannot make an: obvious, no-brainer, (and) simple choice.

Do I buy your product?

Do I even stop to look at your booth at Gen-Con?

Do you understand why that's even a problem?

I'm trying to tell you to stop doing things that make it seem like Catalyst's vision of Shadowrun is an invite only party for old-timers in the inner circle, and you reward me with a 'warning'. All that does is make me NOT want to participate in your little sandbox.

I don't use a FLGS store to game at, so I feel no obligation to purchase from them. So I generally am shopping from online retailers at a discount. But it's always been my policy, for years now, at GenCon, to blow lots of money spending full retail on products at the convention to support the publishers I think are putting out good products. Because I want to see them succeed, and I love playing their games. Publishers love getting full retail profit at conventions as opposed to the vastly smaller margins they get at distribution, so it's a win win, I get games, they get max profit.

And even through all the Loren Coleman embezzlement fiasco, questionable decision-making, and extremely sub-par customer service from IMR, I've made it a point to financially support Catalyst through the purchase of their entire range of Shadowrun 4th and 5th products (Minus the spec. ed runners black book).

I fully expect no one here to care, and maybe I'll get a kthxbai, or a 'can i have your stuff' because this is the internet, but the fact that I just removed Crossfire from my GenCon purchases list and pre-ordered it from coolstuff is a big deal to me, if not to you. If it wasn't for my love of the game, it wouldn't be ordered at all.

[Namikaze]

There's no "problem" in keeping language polite and constructive.  Being insulting and inflammatory creates an environment of hostility, where people feel uncomfortable sharing and participating.  That's not what this forum is about.

Only to have a flippant dismissal from an employee of the company, followed up by a condescending apology which assumes that I cannot make an: obvious, no-brainer, (and) simple choice.

You realize that Bull apologized, right?  And then you threw it right back in his face.  No one else here has expressed such disdain and disrespect.

I'm trying to tell you to stop doing things that make it seem like Catalyst's vision of Shadowrun is an invite only party for old-timers in the inner circle, and you reward me with a 'warning'. All that does is make me NOT want to participate in your little sandbox.

You were insulting and rude.  You weren't constructive in the slightest, and when Bull apologized you threw it back in his face.  I think the warning is the least of what should happen, personally.  If you want to participate in this "little sandbox" (that's condescending as hell, by the way) then you agree to abide by the terms and conditions of the forum.  Violating those terms results in warnings first, which means that FastJack did exactly what we expect him to do.  If he wasn't here to defend the forums, we'd easily turn into this dark corner of the internet that you are worried about:

I fully expect no one here to care, and maybe I'll get a kthxbai, or a 'can i have your stuff' because this is the internet

If you want to keep this part of the internet from becoming like the parts you're describing, keep things polite and civil.

Final point: FastJack never specified you.  There were other posts that were non-constructive and inflammatory.

[Spectre]

There's no "problem" in keeping language polite and constructive.  Being insulting and inflammatory creates an environment of hostility, where people feel uncomfortable sharing and participating.  That's not what this forum is about.

Only to have a flippant dismissal from an employee of the company, followed up by a condescending apology which assumes that I cannot make an: obvious, no-brainer, (and) simple choice.

You realize that Bull apologized, right?  And then you threw it right back in his face.  No one else here has expressed such disdain and disrespect.

I'm trying to tell you to stop doing things that make it seem like Catalyst's vision of Shadowrun is an invite only party for old-timers in the inner circle, and you reward me with a 'warning'. All that does is make me NOT want to participate in your little sandbox.

You were insulting and rude.  You weren't constructive in the slightest, and when Bull apologized you threw it back in his face.  I think the warning is the least of what should happen, personally.  If you want to participate in this "little sandbox" (that's condescending as hell, by the way) then you agree to abide by the terms and conditions of the forum.  Violating those terms results in warnings first, which means that FastJack did exactly what we expect him to do.  If he wasn't here to defend the forums, we'd easily turn into this dark corner of the internet that you are worried about:

I fully expect no one here to care, and maybe I'll get a kthxbai, or a 'can i have your stuff' because this is the internet

If you want to keep this part of the internet from becoming like the parts you're describing, keep things polite and civil.

Final point: FastJack never specified you.  There were other posts that were non-constructive and inflammatory.

First of all, thanks for continuing to make my point. You've really made me feel welcome here.

Second, Bull never apologized. He said he was sorry that I was offended by what he wrote. That is not an apology, it is Bull divorcing himself from blame and making it my inability to see his point.

How to apologize:

Step 1: Say "i'm sorry I offended you." Not: "I'm sorry you took offense to something I wrote."

Third, I wasn't constructive? This whole situation is happening right now because I made a constructive suggestion that Catalyst make free pdf character sheets for use with Crossfire.

Fourth, Fastjack did specify me, when he sent me the warning to my personal message box. If you aren't armed with all the facts, let's not jump to conclusions, shall we?

 Fifth, "we'd easily turn into this dark corner of the internet", That's exactly my point. People like yourself are responsible for making the community better, but few of you seem to realize it. This community at large just continues to make the Shadowrun more exclusive instead of more inclusive.

Sixth, "You were insulting and rude. " Because I don't cloak my words is faux civility, it doesn't make what Bull said in his first statement and 'apology' any less insulting or rude, in fact, when you add in the condescension, it makes it worse.

[Namikaze]

First of all, thanks for continuing to make my point. You've really made me feel welcome here.

I'll summarize the terms of the forum that you are currently using:

If you're not going to be a productive member of the forum community, you aren't welcome here.  If you're going to continue to spin everything anyone says into something ass-backward from how it was meant, then you're not welcome here.  If you're going to generally try to be an ass, then you are welcome to join Dumpshock.  Now I'm not saying that is what you are doing - my guess is that you are upset, and refusing to back down for some reason.

Conversely, if you're willing to be a productive member of the community, who takes things with a grain of salt and humor, and generally tries to understand the opposing view rather than getting offended at the drop of a hat, then you are very welcome here.

Second, Bull never apologized. He said he was sorry that I was offended by what he wrote. That is not an apology, it is Bull divorcing himself from blame and making it my inability to see his point.

It seems to me that you are looking at his apology too strictly, and perhaps with a tinge of entitlement.  Would you like Bull to take a picture of him with a shoe on his head to prove he's sorry?

Third, I wasn't constructive? This whole situation is happening right now because I made a constructive suggestion that Catalyst make free pdf character sheets for use with Crossfire.

You weren't constructive when you decided to derail this whole thing into a personal issue for yourself.

Fourth, Fastjack did specify me, when he sent me the warning to my personal message box. If you aren't armed with all the facts, let's not jump to conclusions, shall we?

And you know for certain that he didn't send a warning to other people's mail boxes?  Because I've been warned several times during my time here - and I've only once made the assumption he didn't also message the other people involved.  He corrected me of my assumption.  So please don't make the assumption that you're the only person that got a warning, because you're probably wrong.

Fifth, "we'd easily turn into this dark corner of the internet", That's exactly my point. People like yourself are responsible for making the community better, but few of you seem to realize it. This community at large just continues to make the Shadowrun more exclusive instead of more inclusive.

And you have the opportunity to also be a productive member of this forum, keeping it from turning into DumpShock.  I would very much like that to happen, as I'm sure many of us would.  But to do that, you need to obey the terms of use of the forum, stop derailing threads, and take personal issues to personal messages.  Which, if you have anything else to say to me on the matter, would be the ideal way to handle it.

Sixth, "You were insulting and rude. " Because I don't cloak my words is faux civility, it doesn't make what Bull said in his first statement and 'apology' any less insulting or rude, in fact, when you add in the condescension, it makes it worse.

I cannot express how much I disagree with this sentence.  Bull has a history of tongue-in-cheek messages, and he's a serious contributor to the Shadowrun community in ways that neither of us can begin to comprehend.  A little respect should be given to the old fart.    With that said, if you refuse to take someone's apology, even if it's not a genuine apology, then that's up to you.  Personally, I think what he said wasn't intended to be insulting, which is why he said he's sorry you took it that way.  I would have said the exact same thing, probably.  I wouldn't have apologized for what I said - I would simply let you know that I wish you hadn't taken it as an insult.

Anyway, we have derailed this thread sufficiently - let's get back on-topic and carry this issue to personal messages.

[Spectre]

Your complete refusal to acknowledge that any point I made has a valid basis is indication enough that you have no interest in actually conversing with me. You're just trying to wordplay my posts, and based on this last reply of yours you obviously didn't actually read my posts and try to understand them. You did take the time to condescend to me through the entire post though. So thanks for that, I guess.

Oh, I see you played your get out of jail free card by by pretending to be above this conversation. If you were above it you never would have interjected in the first place. You and I both know that this isn't going to be continued in any PM. Feel free to post that you disagree though and how willing you really are to hash it out in the dark back alleys of the PM.

I'm not going to apologize for trying to hold a Catalyst employee to a higher standard than you. Bull is a big boy and can take criticism. Hell, I'm going to hope he actually learned something from this.