[Azmodael]

Two bugs:
At chargen when you try to increase skills past the allocated number it properly takes from your karma, but also shows a malus on remaning skill points.

When you try to select Mass Animate as a limited spell you get an error message.

Suggestion:
Make the edge appear as a couple of boxes/circles that can be crossed out. For easier edge managment.

Not sure of it is a bug:
Lasersight is not valid update on Crossbow weapons. Lasersight on crossbows is already a thing in 2014

[Xelian]

1.  Up to 5000 nyens can be transfered after character creation to actual play (page 101. Upper right corner). Currently none are.
2. Certain positive and negative qualities adjust your notoriety (page 372). It will be good those are auto calculated (no big deal but I'm pretty sure those are easily forgettable)
3. Crossbow bolts are pretty much not considered ammo for the purpose of loading them onto a weapon
4. Trying to add Ares Giantslayer Slingshot gives an error (after that it is added)

[Adam]

Will there be any character-breaking updates coming or should I just start building my character now and it will be fine for the foreseeable future?

The only big update coming is to fix Initiation per Street Grimoire.

1.  Up to 5000 nyens can be transfered after character creation to actual play (page 101. Upper right corner). Currently none are.
2. Certain positive and negative qualities adjust your notoriety (page 372). It will be good those are auto calculated (no big deal but I'm pretty sure those are easily forgettable)
3. Crossbow bolts are pretty much not considered ammo for the purpose of loading them onto a weapon
4. Trying to add Ares Giantslayer Slingshot gives an error (after that it is added)

I'll get #1 added as I can. Had totally missed #2, I'll add it when I can as well.  #3 is an issue for both Crossbows and Bows and it's on my immediate to do list. #4 I'll add to the bug list as well and will try to get that fixed promptly.

After playing with this a bit, I am still finding the initial screen for a new character (the screen where you select your priorities) to be less than intuitive.
It currently is set up where you have static Attributes, skills, metatype, etc on the left and you select a priority for each with drop downs.
I feel that it would be more intuitive if the priorities (A,B,C,D,E) were static on the left and you choose attributes, or skills or whatever on the right of each priority.
Maybe it's just me though.

Incidentally, reorganizing it the way I just suggested might also make it easier to implement the optional character creation rules from pg 354 as well.
You would simply have a drop down at the top or bottom or whatever that changed the priorities to new letters and loaded new dropdowns for the stuff on the right.
I may not be being clear about this since my programming skills have dwindled a bit over the last few years, but I think you probably get what I mean.

anyway, just my 2¥

I'll take a look at it to see what I can do with it but no guarantees.

Two bugs:
At chargen when you try to increase skills past the allocated number it properly takes from your karma, but also shows a malus on remaning skill points.

When you try to select Mass Animate as a limited spell you get an error message.

Suggestion:
Make the edge appear as a couple of boxes/circles that can be crossed out. For easier edge managment.

Not sure of it is a bug:
Lasersight is not valid update on Crossbow weapons. Lasersight on crossbows is already a thing in 2014

Ok, originally if you overspent on skills or attributes or whatever, it showed "0 of ##" and you just kept spending karma, Per user request, I changed this to show negative points to give an indicator that you had overspent on that item and were now spending karma and just how many points you went over.  So that's intentional.

I'll take a look at Mass Animate. Edge, I'll take a look at but it may take a bit to get to that one. I'll have to see what I can do with Crossbows. The issue is that the Laser Sight requires being in a Top or Bottom mount but Crossbows (and Bows as well) don't have mount locations so Chummer sees it as an invalid option.  Adding mount locations to these items falls into houserule territory so I'll probably have to add it in there.  I'll add it, it just may take a little bit for me to get to that one because it's not quite as easy as it sounds (I'll have to add specific code to add those mounts to the appropriate weapon categories if the houserule is enabled).

 

Not sure if it is a bug but during char creation the karma needed to increase player skills such as "Pilot Aerospace" (but seems to happen for them all), the karma cost is mis-calculated. For example, if I use JUST karma and level it up;
0 - 1 = 2 karma (correct)
0 - 2 = 6 karma (correct)
0 - 3 = 10 karma (incorrect) should be 12 karma
0 - 4 = 12 karma (incorrect) should be 20 karma
0 - 5 = 16 karma (incorrect) should be 30 karma
0 - 6 = 18 karma (incorrect) should be 42 karma

Source based on page 107 of the core book table, being Karma advancement table for skills.

Oh by the way I am using the updated core rule book that got released the other day, it fixes all the problems with the original book that was found mostly in the Errata. So page numbers seem to have changed for some pages between them, so you might need to update the page numbers in chummer as well? I dunno

Chummer in creation mode does not charge you karma for the last point you added.  It charges you for the cheapest point.  I'll use the same example I've given earlier in this thread.

To make this example simple, we'll say you have 6 active skill points to spend.  You spend 4 on skill A and 2 on skill B and are now out of free skill points.  Now you add 1 point to skill A, raising it to 5.  In career mode what happens next is simple... you get charged (new rating x 2) karma.  In creation mode though it works differently and here's why:

Let's say you were doing all of your character creation on paper... you're giving 5 points to skill A and 2 to skill B and have to pay for one of those points with karma.  The logical thing to do would be to give 5 of your free points to skill A, give 1 to skill B, and then pay 4 karma to raise skill B from 1 to 2.  So that's what Chummer does. It looks for the cheapest option when spending your free skill points to give you the lowest cost to your karma.  So when you raise skill A from 4 to 5 in Chummer, it isn't charging you 10 karma for it, it charges you 4 because it can shift the free points around to best effect.

So in your example I quoted, it started moving the free points around and it looks like you have some skills at rating two.  For the sake of example, we'll say you're raising Blades from 0 to 6 and have Clubs, Pistols, and Unarmed at 2.

So what it did is when you raised Blades that first point from 0 to 1, it charged you for that because there was no cheaper option... 2 karma.  At this point you have 0 free points in Blades, and 2 each in Clubs, Unarmed, and Pistols.

Then you raised Blades from 1 to 2... there were other skills at 2 but none below that, so it charged you full price for that... 4 karma.   At this point you have 0 free points in Blades, and 2 each in Clubs, Unarmed, and Pistols.

When you raised Blades from 2 to 3, it found there was a skill at 2 (Clubs) so it moved your free points around to give you a cheaper option.  It moved 2 points from Clubs to Blades and 1 point from Unarmed to Blades.  You're having to pay the same 2 and 4 karma to raise Clubs from 0 to 2 and now 4 karma for the cost to raise Unarmed from 1 to 2.  At this point you have 3 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs, 1 in Unarmed and 2 in Pistols.

When you raised it from 3 to 4, it moved that first free point from Unarmed so you were paying for that other skill to go from 0 to 1... 2 karma.   At this point you have 4 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs and Unarmed, and 2 in Pistols.

Now you raise Blades from 4 to 5. It can't pull form Clubs or Unarmed but it can for Pistols.  So it's going to charge you to raise Pistols from 1 to 2... 4 karma. At this point you have 5 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs and Unarmed, and 1 in Pistols.

And finally, you raise Blades from 5 to 6.  It pulls that last point from Pistols so it has to charge you the cost to raise Pistols from 0 to 1... 2 karma.  At this point you have 6 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs, Pistols and Unarmed.

Edit: I had a flaw in my example... Fixed now.

[Adam]

Because how Chummer allocates free points can be so confusing, I've considered the possibility of at some point adding on a UI element for attributes (primary and special), skill groups, active skills, and knowledge skills to show where Chummer is allocating free points so you can see where you're paying karma.

[FasterN8]

By the way, I LOVE that "best-path" feature.  It really keeps things as fair as possible when you have new people building alongside veterans who know all these little math tricks to squeeze out as much value as possible from their points and karma.

Edit:

Because how Chummer allocates free points can be so confusing, I've considered the possibility of at some point adding on a UI element for attributes (primary and special), skill groups, active skills, and knowledge skills to show where Chummer is allocating free points so you can see where you're paying karma.

You might just incorporate the karma allocation in chargen into a comprehensive karma spending log.  It would accomplish the same thing as a point-spending display, but it would be useful beyond chargen.

[firebug]

A karma-spending log during Char Gen would be great.  The best-path feature is wonderful.  It'd be good to include an explanation of it somewhere in the program, maybe under the Help menu or somewhere more noticable, to prevent people from getting confused by it.  How to explain it shortly though...  I dunno.

[Top Dog]

Ok, originally if you overspent on skills or attributes or whatever, it showed "0 of ##" and you just kept spending karma, Per user request, I changed this to show negative points to give an indicator that you had overspent on that item and were now spending karma and just how many points you went over.  So that's intentional.

Yeah, I like the negative points. I wonder if it can be made more clear that it means it's now being payed from karma.

Chummer in creation mode does not charge you karma for the last point you added.  It charges you for the cheapest point.  I'll use the same example I've given earlier in this thread.

To make <story>

And finally, you raise Blades from 5 to 6.  It pulls that last point from Pistols so it has to charge you the cost to raise Pistols from 0 to 1... 2 karma.  At this point you have 6 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs, Pistols and Unarmed.

Edit: I had a flaw in my example... Fixed now.

I get what you're trying to do, and it's certainly a good idea, but your current implementation is bugged, is what we're saying. Unless I'm really confused about how it works...

I haven't been able to find the error in a more generalized case, but I have been able to reproduce it with a fresh character (with the latest version).

What I did was:

• Pick Skills C and Magic A (not sure if the magic part makes a difference, mind you).
• Put the free points in Spellcasting and Summoning
• Raise Spellcasting and Summoning up to 6, and pick a specialty for both
• Raise Arcana to 5, Counterspelling to 6, Computer to 6, First Aid to 4 and Perception to 2, with a speciality in Perception
• Raise Influence skill group to 2

This gives Arcana 5, Counterspelling 6, Computer 6, First Aid 4, Perception 2 (Specialty), Spellcasting 6 (specialty), Summining 6 (specialty), and Influence group 2. It uses up all 28 points.

Now, raise Perception from 2 to 3. The cheapest available cost is the actual perception skills, there are no lower level costs that can be raised instead. So it should cost 6 points. Chummer counts 4 instead.
Now raise Perception from 3 to 4. The cheapest available cost is again perception (or First Aid, I guess) for 8, but Chummer deducts 2.

From some more fiddling, I *think* it gets confused by the skill group. Without a skill group selected, it counts the correct cost. If the skill group were a skill, it'd be correct - for the first point, it'd raise influence from 1 to 2. For the second, it'd raise it from 0 to 1. But of course, it's not allowed to do that, because it's a skill group.


I hope that helps with finding the bug and eliminating it. If I'm misunderstanding something, please do enlighten me, but I can see no scenario in which this karma cost is correct.

A detailed overview on what karma is spend on during character creation, like was discussed earlier, would be excellent for this.

[Chaozmager]

Ok, originally if you overspent on skills or attributes or whatever, it showed "0 of ##" and you just kept spending karma, Per user request, I changed this to show negative points to give an indicator that you had overspent on that item and were now spending karma and just how many points you went over.  So that's intentional.

Yeah, I like the negative points. I wonder if it can be made more clear that it means it's now being payed from karma.

Chummer in creation mode does not charge you karma for the last point you added.  It charges you for the cheapest point.  I'll use the same example I've given earlier in this thread.

To make <story>

And finally, you raise Blades from 5 to 6.  It pulls that last point from Pistols so it has to charge you the cost to raise Pistols from 0 to 1... 2 karma.  At this point you have 6 free points in Blades, 0 in Clubs, Pistols and Unarmed.

Edit: I had a flaw in my example... Fixed now.

I get what you're trying to do, and it's certainly a good idea, but your current implementation is bugged, is what we're saying. Unless I'm really confused about how it works...

I haven't been able to find the error in a more generalized case, but I have been able to reproduce it with a fresh character (with the latest version).

What I did was:

• Pick Skills C and Magic A (not sure if the magic part makes a difference, mind you).
• Put the free points in Spellcasting and Summoning
• Raise Spellcasting and Summoning up to 6, and pick a specialty for both
• Raise Arcana to 5, Counterspelling to 6, Computer to 6, First Aid to 4 and Perception to 2, with a speciality in Perception
• Raise Influence skill group to 2

This gives Arcana 5, Counterspelling 6, Computer 6, First Aid 4, Perception 2 (Specialty), Spellcasting 6 (specialty), Summining 6 (specialty), and Influence group 2. It uses up all 28 points.

Now, raise Perception from 2 to 3. The cheapest available cost is the actual perception skills, there are no lower level costs that can be raised instead. So it should cost 6 points. Chummer counts 4 instead.
Now raise Perception from 3 to 4. The cheapest available cost is again perception (or First Aid, I guess) for 8, but Chummer deducts 2.

From some more fiddling, I *think* it gets confused by the skill group. Without a skill group selected, it counts the correct cost. If the skill group were a skill, it'd be correct - for the first point, it'd raise influence from 1 to 2. For the second, it'd raise it from 0 to 1. But of course, it's not allowed to do that, because it's a skill group.


I hope that helps with finding the bug and eliminating it. If I'm misunderstanding something, please do enlighten me, but I can see no scenario in which this karma cost is correct.

A detailed overview on what karma is spend on during character creation, like was discussed earlier, would be excellent for this.

I get what Adam was saying, you see how you have a set number of skill points and at first you allocated them to points, lets say you put 1 point into "unarmed combat" and 5 into "blades", and are now out of skill points. And want to increase blades to 6, it actually would only cost 2 karma instead of the normal 12, because chummer "optimises" your character numbers so that your 6 skill points now go into "blades" and the one point in "unarmed combat" will now be bought with the karma (hence only spending 2 karma)..... So it optimises your spending... So cool never knew it did that

[Top Dog]

I get what Adam was saying, you see how you have a set number of skill points and at first you allocated them to points, lets say you put 1 point into "unarmed combat" and 5 into "blades", and are now out of skill points. And want to increase blades to 6, it actually would only cost 2 karma instead of the normal 12, because chummer "optimises" your character numbers so that your 6 skill points now go into "blades" and the one point in "unarmed combat" will now be bought with the karma (hence only spending 2 karma)..... So it optimises your spending... So cool never knew it did that

Yes, I get it too, but it's not working correctly. In your example, yes, it's good that it buys the Unarmed skill instead. But it doesn't always calculate it correctly.

[Adam]

I get what you're trying to do, and it's certainly a good idea, but your current implementation is bugged, is what we're saying. Unless I'm really confused about how it works...

Ok... that's a very different issue and thank you for bringing it to my attention.  Yes, it's entirely the unbroken skill group that is causing the problem.  I went looking through my code and realized that I broke the calculation when I was adjusting it to handle broken skill groups during character creation.

Three additional notes... First, if you break the skill group you'll see it works correctly, it's just when it's unbroken that it is incorrectly looking at those skills as a source for free points.

Second, breaking the skill group currently allows you to lower one of the skills from the broken skill group.  This seriously messes with the calculation, I'm intending to disallow lowering a skill from a broken skill group.

And third, it's on my to-do list to allow unbreaking a skill group.  That's legal per the rules, it's just Chummer that currently can't handle it.  Unfortunately this is a moderately difficult task so it'll take me a little time to do and is coming after a few other items higher up on the priority list.

[FasterN8]

I replicated the issue as well.  The problem is indeed with the skill group at 2.  If you don't have that skill group (or if you have the group at 3 or higher) the karma for increasing Perception is correct. 

The program is apparently allowing the optimization arbitrage to occur with skills that are part of groups.  Obviously, that should not be allowed.

(Slipped by Adam)

[Top Dog]

Ok... that's a very different issue and thank you for bringing it to my attention.  Yes, it's entirely the unbroken skill group that is causing the problem.  I went looking through my code and realized that I broke the calculation when I was adjusting it to handle broken skill groups during character creation.

Three additional notes... First, if you break the skill group you'll see it works correctly, it's just when it's unbroken that it is incorrectly looking at those skills as a source for free points.

Yup, that's a good workaround until it gets fixed. Anyway, happy to help. I can see how that'd get complicated and a bug might slip in.

[SmilinIrish]

Adam,

Great, great job on Chummer5!  I don't program, but I can only imagine how much work this is.  I learned 4th before I started playing, and Chummer made a complicated chargen possible.  Was seriously sad that it couldn't be updated.  Seriously excited that you have.  Wish there was a way to reward you for the work.

I have a possible bug.  When I play pnp, I add a folding stock to my machine pistols.  I can't seem to do it in chummer5. 

Also, after adding smartgun to the gun, and having purchased trodes and contacts with smartling, the bonus isn't showing up on my weapon stats. 

After choosing dragonslayer as my mentor spirit, it did not add the points to my chosen skill, and I couldn't find a way to choose my two adept powers for free.

Thanks again for all the blood sweat and tears

[Adam]

Ok... that's a very different issue and thank you for bringing it to my attention.  Yes, it's entirely the unbroken skill group that is causing the problem.  I went looking through my code and realized that I broke the calculation when I was adjusting it to handle broken skill groups during character creation.

Three additional notes... First, if you break the skill group you'll see it works correctly, it's just when it's unbroken that it is incorrectly looking at those skills as a source for free points.

Yup, that's a good workaround until it gets fixed. Anyway, happy to help. I can see how that'd get complicated and a bug might slip in.

Very sorry I was missing the point you guys were trying to make.  I've had a number of folks get confused about why raising their skill from 4 to 5 didn't cost 10 karma and thought it was that issue again.

I can try for some sort of "karma log" but I'm going to have to see how I can go about it.  Because it recalculates your karma pretty much any time you do anything in Creation mode, that log would have to be rebuilt each time and the code to build that log would have to thread through everything that does karma cost calculations. Not impossible, just not easy.

[Top Dog]

Very sorry I was missing the point you guys were trying to make.  I've had a number of folks get confused about why raising their skill from 4 to 5 didn't cost 10 karma and thought it was that issue again.

I can try for some sort of "karma log" but I'm going to have to see how I can go about it.  Because it recalculates your karma pretty much any time you do anything in Creation mode, that log would have to be rebuilt each time and the code to build that log would have to thread through everything that does karma cost calculations. Not impossible, just not easy.

No worries, I read those earlier posts too and assumed it was that problem myself as well. That's why I did the detailed analysis later, to rule any confusion out. I just couldn't earlier because work.

The karma log wouldn't have to be kept up-to-date all the time, I think, and I don't think it has to be very detailed either. Presumably Chummer has values on what it spend karma on spent somewhere, and it could format that only when requesting that specific info, and that'd be enough. Though I know that me saying that here is a bit unfair, since actually implementing it is going to be a whole lot tougher.

Anyhow, again, great work on Chummer. Bugs are inevitable in a project like this, but they're fixed extremely quick, so no complaints here.