[chris_m2000]

Draconic memory gems like the Jewel of Memory can store information, presumably like a hard drive.  Physical activities like poisoning a river with toxic waste can alter the astral plane.  So it's logical if you can magically store and access information, powerful Magicians in the second and fourth ages might have created a magical matrix on the astral plane.

Maybe that's what the resonance realms are?  If the architecture of the ancient magical internet still exists, some metahumans with otaku/technomancer qualities could be able to magically access the matrix on a very different wavelength than most magicians.  The different wavelength is why Magicians don't realize manipulating resonance is different than manipulating magic.

If there was a magical matrix in the second and/or fourth age, it stands to reason there were also magical matrix AI's.  One of those AI's could be Saeletra that left the "Good morning world. Welcome back. Play nice." message on December 24th, 2011.  Perhaps another of those AI's was instrumental in Crash 1.0.

Here are a few sourcebook references I found that hint about links between Magic and Resonance/Matrix:
- Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets Page 30 ("… I leave 8 million nuyen for additional research into the fusion of magic and technology.")
- Street Grimoire Shadowrun 5th Edition Page 69 (Rumors of a runner Zero Cool that might or might not have powers of an Adept and Techno abilities)
- Street Grimoire Shadowrun 5th Edition Page 31 (Mentions physical actions that can be taken to impact the Astral Plane)
- Runner's Companion Shadowrun 4th Edition Pages 179-180 (Describes a technomancer searching a resonance realm for erased matrix information)
- Denver City of Shadows Shadowrun 2nd Edition Page 73 (FastJack's posting regarding Saeletra's matrix message about the coming Awakening of magic.)
- Shadowrun Core 4th Edition 20th Anniversary Page 191 (Magical assensing can detect if a subject is a technomancer but it is very difficult.)

[Sendaz]

It is a very touchy subject for both sides.


Course once they realize WizFi (the name for this magical matrix in the astral) is a thing, you are going to have to assign wizfi bonuses for items connected astrally to the WizFi and then mages can go hacking each others WizFi active items.


The whole issue of Resonance/Magic is a touchy subject.

TMs generally do not want to be lumped together with mages, though the game mechanics are similar because it was easier to use that way from a gamer development angle, but it left players feeling like there was a lack of flavour discerning the two.

Opening the door connecting TM and magic is going to lead to situations like the rumoured Zero Cool.  Would you go so far as to have some sort of adept who can use his PP to buy both Magic Power (for spells) and Resonance Power (for TM abilities)?  Remember the system has changed a bit and even having just Magic 1-2 still lets you do quite a bit so imagine a mystic tech adept someone splitting with Magic 2 /Resonance 2 / Adept power 2.  Granted it would be slow out the gate, but the potential would be there.


I always thought Psionics are probably the forebearer of Technomancy, both are basically tapping into greater pools of knowledge/ thought energy linked to this material plane whereas Magic tapped extraplanar powers.  However in SR, psionics is lumped into the magic folds.


It is an interesting thought, but I do not see the game devs bringing these two paths together anytime soon...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Here's the thing: you use the word presumably.  You're presuming magic works the same way tech does - when in point of fact, it doesn't, in part because the desires of the enactor alter the way magic works from moment to moment.  A memory crystal might record the thoughts of a dragon - or it might record the necessary 'trigger mechanism' which seeks out an appropriate memory-cascade within the dragon 'accessing' it, thus making the access of a memory crystal different for each dragon.  Or it may be something completely different; we don't know.

I won't say your ideas wouldn't be interesting to play with, but they would (relatively quickly) lead to, well, world implosion - in essence, putting all the power into the hands of a mystic few.

... in essence, making controlling all the mages and all the computers around them the playground of IEs and GDs.

A few personal beliefs: Resonance abilities are the way magic interacts with the Matrix - in essence, instead of enabling someone to see in the dark (or whatever), it enables a person to perceive and control microfine changes in a certain band of electromagnetic waves.  Saeletra = Brightlight/Leonardo, the single most incredibly annoying IE out there, and one who should have been put down with extreme prejudice when Gold Snout had the chance.   Assensing for technomantic abilities is for all practical purposes assensing someone at the cellular level - which is why it's so hard.

One metagame aspect: physical, living individuals can use both technology and magic; technology cannot create/use magic on its own.  This is a hard line that the devs have always always always toed.  There have always been hints and suggestions, but if you analyze them carefully, their explanations always are within those lines.

[Nath]

My pet crazy theory is that there is a magical matrix, that cover the entire world and allow those who can access and manipulate it to transmit information, to operate devices at a distance, or to compile semi-sentient entities and task them, that is fueled by thoughts and emotions. It is the astral plane.

The astral plane is, supposedly, natural. So it's rather the other way around: without realizing it, the Matrix humanity built what happen to be a replica of the astral plane. An artificial, less elaborated one, but who can still mimic most of its fundamental functionalities. Otakus and technomancers were people whose brain had almost what it needed to perform magic. Possibly the only thing they lacked was astral sight, leaving them unable to "connect" to the astral plane. The datajack technology gave Otaku a substitute, sort of a "Matrix sight" that gave them access to another plane they could interact with. But as the brain matures with age, that combination would stop working. The advent of the so-called wireless Matrix, or more precisely the spread of meshed network protocols, which allow any node to enter the Matrix and bounce on neighboring ones, opened a new way for such people's brain to access the Matrix, that would node disappear with age.

[Bruce]

Resonance realms are part of Jung's 'collective unconscious' that are part of every (meta) human mind.  When the Matrix became complex enough, certain minds found themselves able to dip into that sea at a conscious level, as well as directly interact with the Matrix, a creation solely of man's will and desire, without the benefit of any magic or outside aid.

[MadBear]

OR, the Resonance Realms are the Astral Space of the 7th World. Magic will fade as it does, leaving technology that has advanced for over a thousand years. What will be left is technology indistinguishable from magic, used like magic, treated like magic.

[Sengir]

So it's logical if you can magically store and access information, powerful Magicians in the second and fourth ages might have created a magical matrix on the astral plane.

Uuhm, logical?

[psycho835]

Here's the thing: you use the word presumably.  You're presuming magic works the same way tech does - when in point of fact, it doesn't, in part because the desires of the enactor alter the way magic works from moment to moment.  A memory crystal might record the thoughts of a dragon - or it might record the necessary 'trigger mechanism' which seeks out an appropriate memory-cascade within the dragon 'accessing' it, thus making the access of a memory crystal different for each dragon.  Or it may be something completely different; we don't know.

I won't say your ideas wouldn't be interesting to play with, but they would (relatively quickly) lead to, well, world implosion - in essence, putting all the power into the hands of a mystic few.

... in essence, making controlling all the mages and all the computers around them the playground of IEs and GDs.

A few personal beliefs: Resonance abilities are the way magic interacts with the Matrix - in essence, instead of enabling someone to see in the dark (or whatever), it enables a person to perceive and control microfine changes in a certain band of electromagnetic waves.  Saeletra = Brightlight/Leonardo, the single most incredibly annoying IE out there, and one who should have been put down with extreme prejudice when Gold Snout had the chance.   Assensing for technomantic abilities is for all practical purposes assensing someone at the cellular level - which is why it's so hard.

One metagame aspect: physical, living individuals can use both technology and magic; technology cannot create/use magic on its own.  This is a hard line that the devs have always always always toed.  There have always been hints and suggestions, but if you analyze them carefully, their explanations always are within those lines.

Off topic: Don't know much about Leo, why is he annoying? And why do you think he is Saeletra?

[chris_m2000]

So it's logical if you can magically store and access information, powerful Magicians in the second and fourth ages might have created a magical matrix on the astral plane.

Uuhm, logical?

Regarding the logic there.  I'm assuming during the roughly 10,000 years of the 2nd and 4th ages at least one magical civilization reached a level of complexity requiring a magical Internet to function.

Wyrm makes a good point about the functionality of a Draconic Memory gem not necessarily being the same as a hard drive.  But given five hundred generations of functional magic users from the 2nd and 4th ages, it's logical that one of them could figure out how to magically store/retrieve data.

Once a magician invents magical data storage, things would take off.  The first computer hard drive was developed in the 1950's and we had a functional world wide web only two generations later.

Which is more a simpler explanation?
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms spontaneously manifested?
B.  Something intentionally built the Resonance Realms?

If that's true, apply Occam's Razor again.
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 1st or 3rd ages when there was no magic (and to all evidence no sign of technology)
B.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 2nd and 4th ages when magic was available.

But yeah, it's just a theory and not one I expect the game developers to do more than hint at like they have with the concept of technomages.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Regarding the logic there.  I'm assuming during the roughly 10,000 years of the 2nd and 4th ages at least one magical civilization reached a level of complexity requiring a magical Internet to function.

Wyrm makes a good point about the functionality of a Draconic Memory gem not necessarily being the same as a hard drive.  But given five hundred generations of functional magic users from the 2nd and 4th ages, it's logical that one of them could figure out how to magically store/retrieve data.

Once a magician invents magical data storage, things would take off.  The first computer hard drive was developed in the 1950's and we had a functional world wide web only two generations later.

First, why do they need to magically store and retrieve data?  That's what books are for.  And, y'know, that's what they use.  Mages compete against each other for power, for knowledge, for influence; for your little 'magical matrix' to exist, there needs to be an openness that just doesn't exist in a standard fantasy realm.

Here's the thing: at no time during those past eras was a republic considered a workable concern.  Pre-high-magic, everyone is preparing for the Horrors; post, everyone's trying to survive the ones that are left.  At all times - 2nd age, when dragons ruled, and 4th age, when metahumans were the growing power - there has always been a dominant ruler.  Across the span of real human history, the Democracy and the Republic - all methods of ruling of, by, and for the people - is an aberration.  Rulership by a small cabal or single individuals is the rule.

Which is more a simpler explanation?
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms spontaneously manifested?
B.  Something intentionally built the Resonance Realms?

If that's true, apply Occam's Razor again.
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 1st or 3rd ages when there was no magic (and to all evidence no sign of technology)
B.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 2nd and 4th ages when magic was available.

But yeah, it's just a theory and not one I expect the game developers to do more than hint at like they have with the concept of technomages.

... I'm not going to go too deeply into how screwed up your thinking is, here, in part because discussing RL religion (which is where your use of 'Occam's Razor' is heading) is verboten on the boards.

I don't expect the game designers to come within ICBM distance of it, because for it to exist, you need Liberty, Fraternity, Equality, things that just don't exist in the 'fantasy world' of Earthdawn 4th, or whatever you want to call the 2nd World.  The Resonance Realms can be explained as a whole bunch of things - quantum/superstring echoes of elements of the Matrix, a functionally subdivided global sub/superconsciousness, fragments of the technomancer's own mind, 'deep back-door' creations of Psychotrope/Mirage when she was creating places for the healed psyches to be able to go and heal further.

Whatever you decide, understand that your 'mystic Matrix' is your little playground, and is going to get you snorted out of the room pretty much anywhere else; it just ain't gonna happen, because if it does, you wind up with fun things like dragons, IEs, and global cabals fighting over the power points, fovae, and all the other Seriously Weird Shit that the 6th World has for us, just multiplied by about a zillion.

Whichever way you decide, enjoy.

[grid_hopper]

So it's logical if you can magically store and access information, powerful Magicians in the second and fourth ages might have created a magical matrix on the astral plane.

Uuhm, logical?

Regarding the logic there.  I'm assuming during the roughly 10,000 years of the 2nd and 4th ages at least one magical civilization reached a level of complexity requiring a magical Internet to function.

Wyrm makes a good point about the functionality of a Draconic Memory gem not necessarily being the same as a hard drive.  But given five hundred generations of functional magic users from the 2nd and 4th ages, it's logical that one of them could figure out how to magically store/retrieve data.

Once a magician invents magical data storage, things would take off.  The first computer hard drive was developed in the 1950's and we had a functional world wide web only two generations later.

Which is more a simpler explanation?
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms spontaneously manifested?
B.  Something intentionally built the Resonance Realms?

If that's true, apply Occam's Razor again.
A.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 1st or 3rd ages when there was no magic (and to all evidence no sign of technology)
B.  Something as complicated as the Resonance Realms was built in the 2nd and 4th ages when magic was available.

But yeah, it's just a theory and not one I expect the game developers to do more than hint at like they have with the concept of technomages.

I do remember reading about realms, magic in general in previous ages and how communication and memory was the purpose. Magic being a language, it's a natural engine for creation and a candidate application....

Now, how about the actual matrix being an extension of the concept, borrowing form the magical language? Not very efficiently since VITAS, CFD are the appearent results.
Technomancers being a regressive step back to magic? A natural step as the ages seem to end with an ultimate peak of magic awareness.

[Malevolence]

I'm a little foggy on most of the 2nd and 4th world stuff, but if I recall correctly the Dragons were made in the 2nd world by Titans or some other god-like entities which I believe came from the Astral realms. It probably isn't too much of a stretch to consider that they may have had a hand in making the material world, or that they discovered it. In either case, the astral realm likely predates the material world and the inhabitants of the astral world (either intentionally or from the collective consciousness). Our world may be like a dreamworld to denizens of the Astral, where they take on avatars and interact with objects that are vague and illusory to their world (much like AR is for us).

From this, it is possible that our AR and shared consciousness (the matrix is a shared virtual world) could manifest as an entirely new realm, the grandchild of the astral reality. There are many parallels to how the resonance realm appears to us and technomancers and how our world appears to residents of the astral (not all of whom are dual natured (as a Technomancer is in the resonance) or able project into our world (as submerged technos and folks with access to VR can).

There are just as many (if not more) differences, to be sure, but the idea is not entirely without merit.

[grid_hopper]

It can be that the Matrix is the anchor for the astral which allows the digital world be the monster it is....
The same with Magic as to the Astral. It is our anchor to the Astral.

My reasoning is the inhabitants of the real world (I'm not a fan of the term meat world *LOL* ) can introduce self aware entities into either (martix, astral) and can percieve already existing entities......

[Shock223]

I would really hate to see the crowning achievement of metahumanity to be reduced to mere "Magic messing with Tech".

To each his own I guess.

[grid_hopper]

I would really hate to see the crowning achievement of metahumanity to be reduced to mere "Magic messing with Tech".

To each his own I guess.

It's an agenda of the mudane world leadership to intergrate with the magic aware metahumanity. Also to develop the matrix. Few nations are tolerating 'one or the other' but that is on a few  agendas by the looks of it.
Man and Machine have no choice but to coexist. If magic wins metahumans will dominate......
If the machines win we all loose.

Now metahumanity's natural enemy seems to be the 'Infected with HMHVV' who are (coincidentally?) also naturally immune to CFD. They prey on humans too.
So going by that, the ultimate goal of metahumanity, even if through evolution, is to see technology gone altogether along with mundane humanity.
Who have no advantage except technology....