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The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"

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Ursus Maior

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« Reply #30 on: <09-14-14/1345:28> »
Thanks Ouroboros for the clarification. I just wasn't sure you were talking about wealth or gross products, too.

The numbers are scary though and I concurr, the megacorps might be even more powerful and wealthy. From how I perceive the recent supplements however, I guess the former "first world countries" are hugely diffrent in comparison amongst each other. Far more than today. I'm not sure, I agree with UCAS being 17% ahead of Germany in terms of average per capita income though. I perceive the UCAS to be very authoritarian, which usually lowers per capita income since - though the few rich people mass up money - that does not compensate for the many poorer people. However you figures might look very diffrent if you would not calculate average, but median income. In the end that might give a good insight into how extreme Economic inequality actually is. Both in regards to one society and in comparision between societies.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #31 on: <09-14-14/1402:27> »
Uh ... the above numbers are last year's World Bank GDP.  Those are relatively hard facts, with relatively minor variations between different sources.

And if you're perceiving the UCAS as being 'very authoritarian', I don't think you quite understand what the term 'authoritarian' means.  As well, since I only possess a) GDP numbers and b) population, I can only do a GDP-per-capita calculus - not a median income.  Provide me income figures, and we can talk.

As for Germany in Shadowrun?  ... I don't think there's a single non-aristocratic/theocratic state in the old German boundaries, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong - I'm well away from my Germany sourcebook right now.
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Lusis

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« Reply #32 on: <09-14-14/1809:53> »
Any idea on the relative size of the black market is in SR?
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« Reply #33 on: <09-14-14/1830:48> »
Any idea on the relative size of the black market is in SR?

I believe the size is "Yes".
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Lusis

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« Reply #34 on: <09-14-14/1902:43> »
Heh. I mean in numbers.

The estimated BM today is $1.829 trillion US (link). I believe that's outside of the calculated GWP.


« Last Edit: <09-14-14/1905:56> by Lusis »
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ZeldaBravo

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« Reply #35 on: <09-14-14/2028:33> »
I might be wrong, but I think that cyberpunk and postcyberpunk are the same in most contexts. They are not describing the thing that was before (cyberpunk) and the thing that came after (post cyberpunk). These genres describe the same thing but from different points of view. Cyberpunk protagonists are postcyberpunk antagonists and vice versa. Look at the newest Deus Ex game: you are the company man that tries to get things back to normal. And your enemys are typical 'good guys' in any cyberpunk novel or company men from rival corps.
« Last Edit: <09-14-14/2033:30> by ZeldaBravo »
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Parker

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« Reply #36 on: <09-15-14/0328:07> »
     Makes sense.  Kinda like 'Cyberpunk' was the adolescent phase and 'post-Cyberpunk' has become the matured phase of the game.  Way back in 2nd Edition, when I was a just a player, my main character was a street-mage who I now, as a post-4th edition GM, have him as a Draco Foundation NPC contact for my group. But heh, that's my two copper... 8)
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Ursus Maior

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« Reply #37 on: <09-15-14/1157:22> »
And if you're perceiving the UCAS as being 'very authoritarian', I don't think you quite understand what the term 'authoritarian' means.  As well, since I only possess a) GDP numbers and b) population, I can only do a GDP-per-capita calculus - not a median income.  Provide me income figures, and we can talk.

As for Germany in Shadowrun?  ... I don't think there's a single non-aristocratic/theocratic state in the old German boundaries, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong - I'm well away from my Germany sourcebook right now.
Seems we started off of the wrong food, I didn't want to come across as harsh. Just asking for mor insight on the subject, since I think a discussion purely on average income(s) does not give a lot of insight on what living in the SR universe means to anyone, especially the masses. That is why I asked about median income values. Let me explain:

Edit: In the following text I commonly refer to gross domestic product as GDP and to purchasing power parity as PPP. The GDP is defined by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) as "an aggregate measure of production equal to the sum of the gross values added of all resident institutional units engaged in production (plus any taxes, and minus any subsidies, on products not included in the value of their outputs)." The PPP on the other hand is a technique used to determine the relative value of different currencies. It thus exists to enable us to compare diffrent GDPs. [Thanks Ouroboros.]

The International Monetary Fund rates the USA at 53,101 $ GDP per capita (that ist of course PPP as the US-Dollar is also the unit for measurement) . This is close to numbers by the World Bank (53,143 $), the OECD (55,047$) and the CIA (est. 52,800$ in 2013). For Germany the numbers are 40,007$ (IMF), 43,332$ (WB), 42,121$ (OECD) and 39,500& (CIA) respectively. The countries vary from from ranking 6th (USA in the IMF ranking) to 21st (Germany in the CIA's table) though. They are both thus far outmatched by countries like Qatar or Luxemburg. Both are small, rich states that seem to be much harder to grasp for economists as there per capita GDPs vary considerably from source to source (Qatar: 98,814$ in the IMF table, but 131,758$ in the WB statistics; Luxembourg 78,670$ in IMF statistics and 90,790$ in those of the World Bank).

I took all figures from Wikioedia for simplicity'S sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

These are pure income values, although PPP has already been established. It doesn't say anything about compulsory deduction, which can be very high (on average 49.1 percent in Germany) or rather low (on average 29.6 percent in the USA). Again, the magic word is "average", as taxes are often tied to the income level, while health insurance prices might not be. Any and all compulsory deductions might be capped at some level however, leaving those earning above the cap with more netto of your brutto income.

This leaves us with hugely diffrent amounts of gross income compared to disposable income. The OECD figures the US population to have a gross income of 55,047$ in average, but the disposable income is only 38,753$. The population of Germany however seem to have it far worse. While the gross income is already considerably lower at 42,121$, the hefty reduction of 49.1 percent allows only for 21,187$ of disposable income on average. Are Germans thus only half as rich as Americans? Is the powerhouse of the European Union in fact an impoverished second tier country OECD statistics compared to Americas first place might suggest? Especially since America is ranked first in the OECD statistics and Germany is ranked 16th, far behind Japan (11th) and South Korea (8th)?

Let's get back to the problem with average income as a source for information on how people in a society fare. It's obvious that the numbers are easy to obtain for any state that runs a (working) tax and revenue system. However the average is calculated by "the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group by the number of units in that group" (again taking from Wikipedia for sake of transparency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income). It's a completely fictional sum, as there is no guarantee that anyone earns exactly that amount. It also tells nothing about how many people earn considerably below that figure and how many earn considerably more. Thus it tells you nothing about income equality.

Median income does not, at least to some degree; and median household income even tells you how much money is available per household, giving insight into what families might have at their disposal. On the downside relying on "household" means you loose all diffrences between single households, couples and large families. It simply states "what's in the pot".

And again, the population of the USA have a higher median income than people living in Germany. In the US the median household income is 30,932$, while in Germany it is only 24,623$ -- again it's already PPP. This still places Germany far behind the US (again on the first spot), ranking 12th on the list. But Germany is doing far better than South Korea (16th) and Japan (22nd) this time. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income)

Still not good enough though. Societies do not thrive on money only, let alone income. In the US the disposable income is always a much higher percentage of your gross income, no matter if you count median, average or your personal income. With an average deduction of 49.1 percent, Germans seem to loose almost half the earnings before they can even spend it. Or do they?

Right now, most Germans pay about 8.2 percent of their income directly to their mandatory health insurance provider and further 8-9 percent of your income tax goes to the churches and a couple of percent fund the federal unemployment and social services fonds. Since that is all handled by the government, you don't even get your full income monthly. All deductions are immediately transferred from your employer to the state. If you now deduct all these spendings the average American does not have to make, you land closer to the disposable income of Americans.

Still however inequality between income classes reigns madly in these statistics. Since money buys lots of things, but income doesn't tell you about equality and the development level of the society, we should also look at the human development index. It factors life expectancy, education and income. Now the USA is no longer in the first place, but on the fifth with Germany on the sixth, rich Luxembourg on the 21st and Qatar on the 31st.

This time, all factors are an aggregation of the whole society, giving no average or median figure for the HDI. For this there is the inequality adjusted HDI, which is usually lower than a coutnries respective HDI. Since the IHDI figures are concerned about average persons and views the unadjusted HDI as a potentially achievable figure were there no inequality.

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"The IHDI takes into account not only the average achievements of a country on health, education and income, but also how those achievements are distributed among its population by “discounting” each dimension’s average value according to its level of inequality. The IHDI is distribution-sensitive average level of HD. Two countries with different distributions of achievements can have the same average HDI value. Under perfect equality the IHDI is equal to the HDI, but falls below the HDI when inequality rises. The difference between the IHDI and HDI is the human development cost of inequality, also termed – the loss to human development due to inequality."

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/inequality-adjusted-human-development-index-ihdi

The United States have only weak mechanisms of control for the federal government when it comes to internal matters. That is by design and seems to be something many Americans want to keep. The result however is an enormous inequality in education, which directly influences income, health insurance and thus health and longevity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States). About ten times more people earn half or less of the average income than duoble or more. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States)

If the initial assumption that the SR universe closely follows ours still stands, than this inequality should be the case for SR, too. However, after we deducted the corp's assets from the national economies, there is less to distribute. History shows that wars and financial crises lead to more inequality, if there are no strong governments that are willing the "keep the flock together" and spend huge sums on re-equalization programs. Here it starts to get tricky for SR. The whole world has basically been rocked by crises for almost all of the 21st century. So either governments managed to steer through the storms and kept the status quo in equality, or they failed.

Most likely the ultra rich simply fled into the megacorps, taking their money with them. In that case however, the nations would have benefitted from programmes to make it unlikely for richt people to "emigrate" into the megacorps. Something like a "you can leave, but your money stays"-laws. That's tricky, as it puts a nation on a collision course with the Corporate Court at some point. That however would make every nation state a 1990s Russia or a 1920s Germany just waiting for a strong leader to stabilize it, but with little care for international relations. It also comes across very authoritarian and forces the state to develop secret services that monitor everyone, but especially the rich. With everyone generating huge amounts of metadata about himself constantly, that becomes easier though.

In short, with national economies forced to give up huge parts of their financial power and with a world wide "warrior culture" and huge and violent cultures of anarchism, anti-establishment and shadowy corp wars, as well as constant wars and skirmishes world wide, I don't see how those nations in despair could not be vastly more authoritarian than today. Especially countries who are known to have huge militaries, large security apparatuses and thriving hate groups even today.
« Last Edit: <09-16-14/0255:28> by Ursus Maior »
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Nath

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« Reply #38 on: <09-15-14/1751:11> »
As far as the canon goes, megacorporations do pay taxes (Corporate Download, page 21, and Corporate Guide, page 20), even if they likely reduce it to a strict minimum through tax evasion just like their existing counterpart do.

The megacorporate privilege of extraterritoriality is not secession. Megacorporations are still operating inside the host country. Extraterritoriality applies to places, where local law applies accordingly to the international accord ratified by the local governement which require no legal proceeding to occur. If anything, the ownership, rent or lease of the land itself is subject to the host country law (and thus taxation), as they must be legally valid for extraterritoriality to apply upon the concerned facility.

It is likely that national fiscal resources are lower than they currently are, because of tax avoidance. Not that it would be possible for megacorporations to evade taxation more than the existing corporations already do, but rather because they represent a larger part of the economy.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #39 on: <09-15-14/1826:19> »
Post-Cyberpunk seem terrible because this seems inevitable and could be a campaign in such a genre, but even in cyberpunk corporations pretend to adhere to certain morals. In response to Urban Outfitter's horrible bloody Kent State vintage sweatshirt.

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« Reply #40 on: <09-16-14/0114:52> »
Ursus Major, just as an aside - if you're going to use a term, such as 'GDP (PPP)', it is helpful to your readers if you define that term early - and often!!  For those of you who don't know what 'GDP (PPP)' is, it's Gross Domestic Product at Purchasing Power Parity - a calculation which (according to the Wikipedia article) takes the yearly GDP of a locale and divides it by the average/mid-year population for that locale.  Since estimates and assumptions have to be made, figures determined by different organizations can vary wildly (as UM showed), because they use different estimates and assumptions.  What's often included, again according to the article, are such things as savings, relative cost of living, inflation rates, a common-basis currency instead of exchange-rate variances, and the like.  The common-basis currency is the Geary-Khamis dollar, the value of which is determined either by a single point-of-value for the US dollar (right now commonly either 1990 or 2000) and/or the amount of a standard commodity (such as grain, gold, or whatever) that nation's currency could purchase.

(Interestingly enough, only the CIA estimates actually give a world per-capita number, as compared to both the International Money Fund (IMF) estimates and the World Bank hard data calculations.)

Going by the World Bank again (since that's what I used before), things do look a little different.  Let's throw my prior estimates into the blender ... actually, let me do some calculatator work, see if I can't get close to a World number from the World Bank - grab the WB calculations, a population roster, and see if I can't multiply this out.  11:06pm.

11:51pm.  Heh.  I spend lots of time on some stuff, y'know?

Anyhow.  Loading all these numbers in, doing some cross-reference, that sort of thing, we come up with ...

World Bank GDP: $73,982,138,000,000.
World Population: 7,148,688,446
GDP by Population: $10,349.05

World Bank GDP (PPP): $100,399,573,997,960.00
Population accounted for in GDP (PPP): 6,967,662,452
Unaccounted-for Population: 181,025,994

Average GDP (PPP) by accounted-for population: $14,409.36 (+39.23% from GDP)
Average GDP (PPP) by total population: $14,044.47 (+35.71% from GDP)

Looking between the GDP and the GDP (PPP), the "First World" nations (US, UK, Canada, Germany) generally stayed even (US, +0.82%) or went down somewhat (worst being Canada, -16.13%).  The Second World developing nations (China, Brazil) went up some (Brazil, +35.99%) or a lot (China, +76.06%).  Considering some of the others (Macau, Singapore, Luxembourg) I would estimate that the city-states would tend to jump considerably between the two, as of course do most of the oil-producing nations (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates).  Hmm ... 12:13

12:34.  The things I do for fun ...

Interesting: the highest percentage increase from gross GDP per capita to GDP (PPP) - that's 'purchasing power parity', which as I understand it is 'what you can get for the money you make' - is Gaza and the West Bank, which goes from a GDP per capita of $883 to $4576 - +418.49%.  Now, I'll concede that part of this may be exchange rate issues, but still.

In fact, nearly all of those that have a significant jump (+75% or more) between GDP and GDP (PPP) are Second or Third World countries - suggesting that, well, they actually get more for their 'buck' than their US-dollar-vaule GDP lets on, and yeah, I suppose the USD is valued more in such countries.  But it does make a point - that when we think 'those poor people living in the West Bank on $2.42/day' are really living on an effective $12.54/day.  Sure, a lot less than the effective US $145.60, but a lot more than the $2.42 the commercials babble on about, y'know?

So ... weird.  Anyhow.

Unfortunately, Wikipedia's pages - the Median Household Income, the List of Countries by Average Wage, or the Household Income page - are as extensive as even the GDP (PPP) page; the first (which I tossed in here) does have some interesting numbers; the maximum Median Household Income as a percentage of the GDP (PPP) (meaning most household incomes are at that percentage) is Slovenia - 71.62%.  The US is at 58.21%; Germany at 56.82%.  Mexico, the lowest on the list, is at 27.29%.

No, I haven't bothered to fiddle with megacorporations, but I would expect that they might be a) higher on the GDP (PPP) than almost anyone, but have an average(ish) Median Household Income - which would make their percentage comparison between the two somewhat lower.  People might have a higher absolute level, but the way it's perceived is certainly going to differ ...

Posted at 1:14.  Just FYI.  ;)
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firebug

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« Reply #41 on: <09-16-14/0710:12> »
I might be wrong, but I think that cyberpunk and postcyberpunk are the same in most contexts. They are not describing the thing that was before (cyberpunk) and the thing that came after (post cyberpunk). These genres describe the same thing but from different points of view. Cyberpunk protagonists are postcyberpunk antagonists and vice versa. Look at the newest Deus Ex game: you are the company man that tries to get things back to normal. And your enemys are typical 'good guys' in any cyberpunk novel or company men from rival corps.

That's an interesting way to think about it.  I haven't played Deus Ex so I can't use it as an example too well, but more examples would be interesting.

I don't know if it's that clear-cut though, of course.  In Deus Ex, the "good guy antagonists" are people against the transhumanist movement, right?  Like they dislike cybernetics technology and similar things.  I don't know if that's what'd be considered good guys in the older cyberpunk things but I don't know if it was against the technology itself.

I'm curious as to how Shadowrun evolved from it.  Like, the corps aren't considered Pure Evil (save for Aztechnology) but it's not that they've had a change of morals, it's more than it's undeniable that in order for people to be buying things, desirable stuff has to be produced.  So they're just more cold, greedy, and immoral than specifically cruel and oppressive.  Those things did not go away, but they take a back seat to Profit.  Am I on the right track?
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Lusis

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« Reply #42 on: <09-16-14/0802:17> »
Kinda. Corps are just collections of people; and each has their own agenda. Most are benign; to keep their job, to get somewhere in life, to make their mark. 

People rarely do people do evil for evil's sake. Usually they do it because there is some personal gain and they don't think about, or don't care, who it affects in the long term. Corps in SR are the centers of power, and in life power draws those who abuse it for their own ends ( much like politcians on RL).

 
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Nath

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« Reply #43 on: <09-16-14/1724:57> »
Interesting: the highest percentage increase from gross GDP per capita to GDP (PPP) - that's 'purchasing power parity', which as I understand it is 'what you can get for the money you make' - is Gaza and the West Bank, which goes from a GDP per capita of $883 to $4576 - +418.49%.  Now, I'll concede that part of this may be exchange rate issues, but still.

In fact, nearly all of those that have a significant jump (+75% or more) between GDP and GDP (PPP) are Second or Third World countries - suggesting that, well, they actually get more for their 'buck' than their US-dollar-vaule GDP lets on, and yeah, I suppose the USD is valued more in such countries.  But it does make a point - that when we think 'those poor people living in the West Bank on $2.42/day' are really living on an effective $12.54/day.  Sure, a lot less than the effective US $145.60, but a lot more than the $2.42 the commercials babble on about, y'know?
The Palestinian territories don't issue their own currency. They mostly use Israeli Shekel, Jordanian Dinar and US Dollar. So the exchange rate is not the issue there.

Exchange rates depend on how much the local currency is valued by people who do have US dollars (or Euro, or Pounds, or Swiss Francs...). So, in most case (actually, nearly all case, except for countries like China or Saudi Arabia), people who do not belong to that country, mostly foreign companies who wants to buy something valuable there.

Beyond mere exchange rates, the main difference between nominal amount and purchasing power parity is local cost of living. One apple will be cheaper in Gaza than it is in New York, even if you pay both in US dollar. Because the grocery store rent is cheaper, the truck driver salary was cheaper, etc. Obviously, few people are willing to move into Gaza to buy an apple, or an apartment, or shares in a local company. Demand is low, so price goes down.

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« Reply #44 on: <09-17-14/0043:54> »
The thing that tends to be forgotten in this discussion is that the PCs exist.

There's your optimism and ray of light.  Despite what SR4 tried to paint, you can be a Runner and still be a "good guy."

For me going full Cyberpunk is a perfect fit because hey, it gives the PCs something to build up.