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The Genre of "Post-Cyberpunk"

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firebug

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« on: <09-10-14/0340:16> »
Been a while since I posted I feel.

I was following a chain of links on TV Tropes and came across "Post-Cyberpunk" and realized that it really seems to be what Shadowrun has evolved into.  Which I think is a great thing--  I recall an interesting thread a while ago based around someone complaining that if Shadowrun's world really was a total crapsack dystopia where nothing good happens, then caring about the setting and the characters is pointless.  "Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy" is how TV Tropes describes it.

But more so, I like that the sub-genre feels more "realistic".  Which is to say, saying everything is bad everywhere all the time just doesn't make sense.  Especially in a world literally containing magic and incredible technological advancements.  Post-cyberpunk takes the blame that cyberpunk usually puts on technology itself and puts it more into the direct actions of the people, and thus allows the players a stronger feeling of agency--  Good does exist and the players have the ability to change at least their own situations to be more to their liking.

This aspect is in stark contrast to what's normally associated with dystopian settings.  World of Darkness is a shitty place to live because the setting is a byproduct of a theme where Shadowrun feels like it's a setting that grew on its own and then gained its genre.  Even though I know that's not really the case--  The earlier editions were very stereotypical cyberpunk.  And so, so powerfully eighties.

I admit I'm partly just parroting the page I read, but my point is that I was excited to find out that there's a name for what exactly I feel Shadowrun's become.

So to people who've played for a while and witnessed it evolve, how do you feel about the theme the game's taken?  Are you bothered by it losing some of its hardcore and darker tones?  Or do you feel like me where the more neutral tone improves the setting?
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Sternenwind

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« Reply #1 on: <09-10-14/0704:00> »
I prefer MrBtongue definition and explanation of cyberpunk.
And with that my Shadowrun world is still cyberpunk, not 1980 Cyberpunk but 2010-2020 Cyberpunk.
I am sure it has it flaws but it help me pretty good to define my world, play and game.

TUN:Cyberpunk is back - MrBtongue

Wakshaani

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« Reply #2 on: <09-10-14/0829:54> »
Well, one of the things that you need is contrast. SHADOWrun. When it's all-dark, all the time, you lose that.

When you instead showcase this area with crippling poverty, the SINless walking around without medical care and being freely abused by enforcement agents, then pan over (across a wall, for instance!) and show a bright shiny middle-class housing area, with a car in the driveway, kids laughing and chasing a robotic dog around the yard, while the parents are served refreshments by a housekeeper 'bot, well, NOW you have a story.

Some illustrations.







This is where you get your street rats and people who fell through the cracks growling about gilded cages and corporate chains, while crporate nobles shudder at the idea of life out There with Those People, who have no issue with giving the corporation (The Corp is mother, the Corp is father; I know where my loyalties lie.) their labor and thier lives in exchange for the protection and comfort that life brings them.

You need poor kids being sold to fleshpeddlers and turned into security thugs, domestic servants, highly-trained assassins, or disposable playthings. You need rich people donating money to the poor or working for a cure for disease, improving cybernetics, or otherwise making advances while poor people prey on the weak, rob and murder, or engage in simple racism and hate.

Good rich, bad rich, good poor, bad poor, and all the people in between just trying to get by.

Shadows.

MadBear

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« Reply #3 on: <09-10-14/0927:00> »
I don't think Cyberpunk means nothing good ever happens. Cyberpunk is only one of many dysptopic genres. A dystopia, if you can forgive a little cut and paste here,  is a community or society that is in some important way undesirable or frightening. It is the opposite of a utopia. Such societies appear in many artistic works, particularly in stories set in a future. Dystopias are often characterized by dehumanization, totalitarian governments, environmental disaster, or other characteristics associated with a cataclysmic decline in society. Dystopian societies appear in many sub-genres of fiction and are often used to draw attention to real-world issues regarding society, environment, politics, economics, religion, psychology, ethics, science, and/or technology, which if unaddressed could potentially lead to such a dystopia-like condition.   So a dystopia is really a story in which one element is strongly unpleasant. You are right, if nothing good ever happened, there would be no emotional connection to the setting. So even the saddest, most depressing dystopic setting will have a glimmer of hope. Cyberpunk specifically is a future setting with advanced technology often melding man and machine, not a setting where nothing good ever happens.
Shadowrun is definately dystopic, and is also both Cyberpunk and Fantasy.
I've been playing since 1st edition, and I personally feel SR is still strongly Cyberpunk. It still has its dystopic themes, is still dark and gritty. The technology has advanced, but that doesn't mean it's no longer Cyberpunk.
« Last Edit: <09-10-14/0933:53> by MadBear »
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #4 on: <09-10-14/1440:22> »
That glimmer of hope thing is important, by the by. While we want things gritty and have moral shades all over, there are some bright spots here and there that get mentioned. I did stuff in a book a while ago that will be out sometime (And is about something, because let's keep it vague people!) that will showcase this. It's nothing big, but hopefully people will read it and go, "Aw man. That's cool. I dig that." Just one of those lil' candles in a big ol' field of dark,

AndyNakamura

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« Reply #5 on: <09-10-14/1607:25> »
I started the discussion on the same topic quite a while back. IIRC, it ended up with, "depending on how you choose to run it".

Post-cyberpunk was a reaction to the grim and gritty dystopia of the classic cyberpunk, the "high-tech, low-life, no hope" becoming "high-tech, low-life, and we love it". Classic comparison: Gibson's "Neuromancer" vs. Stevenson's "Snow Crash". Early SR is closer to the former, later SR to the latter.

IMO, the difference between classic and post-cyberpunk is the degree in which the protagonists' actions matter. If they are doomed to fail no matter how they try, if the system remains uncrashed despite the efforts, if even if they do achieve their goals, the price is too great - this is classic. If the protagonists can actually save / change the world, or at least retire in comfort - this is post.

SR is interesting in that regard. On one hand, you have characters who can succeed on a world-changing scale - cf. Dunkelzahn and Captain Chaos. On the other, the society seems to absorb anything they do and return to the status quo, except with shinier chrome. Particular example is the transition from SR4 to SR5 - from a society with a potential and promise of a transhumanist utopia back to the more dystopian one. Even obvious in the tone and color palette of the book.

Or maybe that was just Slamm-O! (assuming he is the narrator) getting more cynical with age.
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #6 on: <09-10-14/1711:27> »
Honestly, reading 4th Edition made me more paranoid of the future than the earlier editions did. You are living in a world where the food you eat is broadcasting signals. You literally cannot escape Big Brother; your solace is that he is busy fighting your Other Big Brothers.

I would much prefer to live in Blade Runner's obvious Crapsack than the subtle Craddock of Minority Report. And Minority Report is STILL better than Shadowrun's Post-Cyberpunk universe.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #7 on: <09-10-14/1753:18> »
I would agree with the original premise that Shadowrun has evolved from Cyberpunk to Post-Cyberpunk over the course of its editions. Personally I preferred the earlier vibe, but I'm still playing.

To me, the evolution of the setting mirrors some of what I imagine the game designers have gone through through over the course of the years. Originally, it was "we've got this crazy world, what do we do with it", which was true for both the designers and the people of 2050. In-game, magic, cyber, goblinization, the disintegration of nations, and all the other details of the Awakening had all emerged during the previous 40 years and it was easy to envision the confusion and unsettled feelings of a world that had flipped upside-down within a generation or two. Now, with another 25 years of game design and world evolution, the setting has its feet under it. It's less Wild West than it was at the beginning, both because the players and designers have adopted (and adapted) the setting but also because the game world itself has had that much more time to come to grips with the realities of the Sixth World.

It's interesting to me that AndyNakamura mentioned the color palette of the book. This is something I've wondered about a lot over the last five years: how much of the cyberpunk feel of the early editions came from the fact that they were greyscale books printed on uncoated paper? The black-and-white artwork really lent itself to a grim cyberpunk setting, as did the monochrome nature of the books themselves. For the 4th and 5th Editions we've had sourcebooks printed in full color on glossy paper stock. I think the color goes along way to change the tone of the books. SR4A has the blue background on every page while SR5 has the tan-and-red background, and the pages are shiny. Now, the artwork and books are so bright and colorful and reflective that sometimes it feels harder to find the shadows. That puts me in a post-cyberpunk frame of mind by itself. Has anyone else noticed this or am I off on my own here?

firebug

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« Reply #8 on: <09-10-14/1817:38> »
A lot of interesting responses!

The bringing up the color palette of the books is interesting, and I do think it's worth looking into.  A big thing with SR4 was the transition to wireless matrix.  That made the matrix universally so much more accessible.  It was more focused on the wonder of the transfer of information than the danger it possessed.  SR5 had the matrix "reigned in" by the corps and puts a bigger focus on the danger it can pose--  This is backed up by the more accessible cybercombat rules and the fact that just about anything can get wrecked on the web now.

The colors do reflect those themes.  The SR4A (which is what was going on when I started) book felt more like Tron in its illustrations than Neuromancer.  It had the adventurous nature of what the setting had become in mind, I'm sure.  That is to say, an enormous world with layers and layers of intruigue.  To paraphrase what Tecumseh said, after 25 years the setting had grown too much to just be classified as "cyberpunk dystopia" and ended up being a bit more than that.  Or so I feel.

Then in 5th edition the colors returned and give it a much more severe appearance.  Not quite grim or hopeless, but just more dangerous.  The phrase "Everything has a price" doesn't take the much-needed aspect of hope away from the setting's theme, but it does explain it plainly:  You will get nothing until you have sacrificed more than you bargained for.  It reels in SR4A's explorative, adventurous feel and gives it more of a cautious, paranoid feeling, which I really like.  In SR5, life is the Faustian Bargain and everyone is fighting to come out on top.
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Lusis

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« Reply #9 on: <09-10-14/1826:39> »
(This may ramble a bit,  ;) but some of my thoughts)

I love SR, but there are giant plot holes in it's meta-verse.

For instance, we have giant corporations responsible for oppressing everyone, where if you aren't corp you are living out of a broken refrigerator in the barrens. Contrary to reason, the megacorps, by definition, are able to sell product. Yet, we are told, those inside the corps, i.e. "wageslaves", get access to corp goods with corp pay via one giant economic circlejerk. Problem is, this means that these corps are almost completely stagnant in terms of growth, or possibly even shrinking. Thus, how can they afford to snatch up smaller corps without going under? Maybe there's mysterious magical product-buying gnomes somewhere.

Or perhaps, what you read in the books are the narrow viewpoints of a small, very cynical, very detached, jaded, subculture of a much larger world.

Consider that a corp with extraterritoriality really isn't so much a corp as it is a meta-state, much like a socialist state with a defined caste system of workers, managers, and executives. It "mints" it's own money, the internal economy is planned and centralized. It has it's own military. It's worker class to produces state goods much like in the USSR, Communist China, or even North Korea. The main difference between a state and a mega-corporation is that the latter is extremely dispersed geographically, and megacorps are driven by profit and must maintain market competitiveness, keeping them very efficient compared to modern communist states,  (though the megacorps could tolerate inefficiency much better than smaller ones can).

As much as Aztechnology or SK want to rule the world, the bottom line is that it is next to impossible to do so. They can buy politicians to regulate the hell out of various industries and markets, as large corporations can endure the cost of such better than small businesses can, and use regulation as a weapon against emerging competitors. Like the modern world, this would create a relativity stagnant economy, such as European social democracies have experienced. However, to my knowledge, the SR world lacks entitlement programs enabled by foreign investment and military support. Therefore, people must be employed somewhere to keep buying the megacorp's products. It stands to reason that there should be thousands upon thousands of A corps and smaller employing workers, especially considering the population is a little down from the cataclysms in SR.

I for one, would love to read something from the viewpoint of what would, in a reality containing such wealthy producers of consumer goods, be a decently-sized middle class that is not necessarily part of a megacorp.


« Last Edit: <09-10-14/1830:23> by Lusis »
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firebug

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« Reply #10 on: <09-10-14/1958:56> »
I actually don't come across much that literally says you're either part of a corp or homeless in the barrens.  Also, while this doesn't solve much of the "where's all the non-corps?" I believe it states there's a lot of independent talismongers and other magic-related sellers due to it being a "there's always a demand" niche.  Of course, these guys are also the ones bought up as quick as possible too.

The books actually do establish that the megacorps are not the only corps.  Some prewritten adventures involve established AA corps and below too, I think.  It probably is a perspective issue like you said after the first paragraph--  The books are mostly written from the viewpoint of what it's like in Seattle unless it specifically states otherwise.  The rest of the world (except other well-known sprawls) tend to be more lax, and the books don't go into detail on them all the time.  It makes sense though--  It's the entire world we're talking about here.

I'm not expert (really) but there's some very well-read people on this forum who could talk about that topic with you and find a "solution" of sorts.  If it doesn't happen in this thread, I totally suggest you create a new thread to discuss it.  It'll end up pages long I'm sure.
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Lusis

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« Reply #11 on: <09-10-14/2005:53> »
Kinda did already: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12703.0
I really want to write that book - I just need the corp to sign off on it!  8)

Yeah I did overstate the income disparity in SR, although the world is pretty much between rich and "fuck, I'm eating toothpaste to stay alive".
« Last Edit: <09-10-14/2008:30> by Lusis »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #12 on: <09-11-14/0246:19> »
I love SR, but there are giant plot holes in it's meta-verse.

(Clipped for space, but: giant corporations, nobody else, stagnant economy.)

I'd describe that as you reading the metaverse more literally than perhaps you should.  There is more than just 'the megacorporations and the Barrens'; you have only to look at the four types of SINner Quality to understand that.  However, let's break it down a bit more clearly.

Let's start with the gross domestic product of the planet - the value of all final goods and services produced by that country (or, if it's GCP instead of GDP, corporation).  The World Bank estimates 2013 had it at just under 75 trillion, and as 'current' SR follows 'current day' pretty closely, just in nuyen instead of USD, we'll use that.  The US and the EU each account for just about 17 trillion of that 75; China, with its 1.3 billion citizens, 'only' 9 trillion. Now, the Big 10 cut into that a lot - because they get to be considered independent of that amount, their GCP feeding into no country (the way, say, WalMart feeds into the US GDP), but as has been pointed out (in the SR3 Corporate Download, IIRC), while the Big Ten megacorporations outproduce most small countries, they are by no means the biggest individual economies in the world.

So in modern terms ... Mexico?  Australia?  Canada?  Brazil?  These are all 1.25-2.5 trillion dollar (nuyen) concerns in the modern world, Mexico being that 1.25 trillion GDP, and at #15 on the World Bank list.  Aztechnology equals Aztlan, but on the books, they are seperate, and though Aztlan is Mexico + Central America, there are still other non-Aztechnology corporations in the place, selling their goods and services to Aztlaner citizenry.  Let's drop down a bit further - Philippines, Egypt, Finland, Greece.  250 billion in annual production.  That's a decent medium-sized country, but 250+ billion is what WalMart, the biggest corporation in the world, is doing today.  So the Big 10 are bigger than WalMart ... let's call 1.25 trillion nuyen a good average benchmark for the gross corporate product of the Big Ten.  That's literally five times as big as WalMart - and equal to Mexico.  It's also money that is part of no national GDP; that's pure company.

Do the math, subtract 12.5 trillion from 75 trillion, leaving 63.75 trillion.  Now, we have AA multinationals, of which there are scores, if not hundreds.  Their cash flow is part of no country either; let's say, for argument's sake, that there are 300 AAs, with an average gross corporate product of ... 7% of the Big 10.  Oh, there are lots who are bigger than that, but there are also lots who are smaller - because a billion-dollar company is still going to be in there punching, a tough AA to take over, while the 50-billion-dollar AA is gunning for a position at the Big Boy's Table.  That's an average, by the way, of 87.5 billion dollars of products and services produced. With 300 AAs, that still leaves 36.250 trillion nuyen for the rest of the world.

Sounds like a lot?  It is and it isn't.

We need to go back to our numbers and crank in another set: population.  Current GDP-per-capita (per person in the world) is actually only $10,345 - product produced per person on the planet.  That's income, if you like, but it applies to everyone, whether 2-day-old infant, 30-year-old worker, or 60-year-old CEO.  Take, oh, 0.3% of the world for each AAA (almost 22 million people as having corporate citizenship) and 10% of that - 0.03% - as being exclusive corporate citizens of each AA, and you have the following GDP per capita numbers:


   Country      GDP      Population      GDP per capita   
   World      $75 trillion      7.25 billion      $10,345   
   United States      $16,800,000,000,000      318,713,00      $52,712   
   China   $9,240,270,000,000      1,366,650,000      $6,761   
   Japan      $4,901,530,000,000      127,130,000      $38.555   
   UK      $2,522,261,000,000      63,489,000      $39,728   
   Germany      $3,634,823,000,000      80,781,000      $44,996   
   Brazil      $2,245,673,000,000      203,130,000      $11,055   
   Canada      $1,825,096,000,000      35,427,524      $51,516   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Individual AAA      $1,250,000,000,000      21,750,000      $57,471   
   Individual AA      $87,500,000,000      2,175,000      $40,230   
   SR World Non-AAA/AA      $36,250,000,000,000      6,380,000,000      $5,682   

This is, understand, an average.  I don't earn $52,000 a year any more than Bill Gates does - just in the opposite direction.  I also don't make only $10,000 a year - but according to this, all of China gets by on less than that amount.  Using the AAA and AA numbers, this means that while the people in the corporations are living the secure life like all of us in the USA, everyone else has to scrape by on less than what the Chinese are getting.

That, of course, doesn't happen; there are still the haves and the have-nots - 6.38 billion of 'em.  They're the ones who are buying 'stuff', whether via corporations (the tens of thousands of A-rated nationals and under) or just at home.  For every bum trying to live on 20¥/week - that's 1040¥ per year - there's someone with a wife and three kids who's pulling in 30,000¥ a year.

Shadowrun, its writers, its GMs,  and shadowrunners - the IC writers of the books - tend to accentuate the differences between the top rollers and the gutter.  Difference is where the story is.  But though the middle class is receeding, they aren't completely gone - and when you get down to it, six-pluss billion lower-class National-SIN owners spending 50¥ is still a big chunk of change.

The economy still exists.  It is in no way flat, or stale.  The Big Ten megacorporations are centrally planned, yes, but they're fighting each other for market share, fighting tough AAs, inventive A's, ain't-gonna-quit mom-and-pop stores.  And while yes, in many places there is a certain level of 'I buy everything from Shiawase!!', that really only kicks in at corporate HQ - and sometimes not even then, because people are people, and not everyone is a 'ONLY MY COMPANY'S PRODUCTS OR I DIE!!!' fanatic.

EDIT: Note that this is amount produced, not controlled.  The US can be said to produce the above amount, and yet effectively control the amount produced by itself, much of the EU, and a good third of China - not to mention lots of other nations.  The US is currently still in the driver seat of the world economy, though this is changing.  'Control' does not mean 'produce'; 'control' also does not mean 'leaves everyone else starving on the side of the road'.

See also my post in the thread Lusis quotes.
« Last Edit: <09-11-14/1154:43> by The Wyrm Ouroboros »
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #13 on: <09-11-14/1055:26> »
I love you and I want to have your babies.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #14 on: <09-11-14/1126:00> »
You keep saying that, but you never call, you never write ... :D
Pananagutan & End/Line

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