[Killstring]

Known as "The Outsider," possessed of a whole clan of dragons, and creator of the human equivalent of Immortal Elves?

Why have I never heard of this guy before? Is he or his clan around in the 6th world?

[Crimsondude]

Why do you think fewer than two dozen Great Dragons survived into the Sixth World?

He's never been mentioned explicitly or by reference to my knowledge.

[Parker]

     Let me guess, this guy kicked off the 'down-cycle' wyrm hunting mentioned in a few books.

[Critias]

My personal theory is that he (and his old clan of long-lived humans) has ties to the Black Lodge, but IIRC there's never really even been official teasers/hints in that direction.  It just makes sense to me, in the "long-lived humans, no elves allowed," sort of club of uber-magicians the BL has grown to be.

[Crimsondude]

Oh nuts. Critias had to go and turn this serious.

I don't necessarily agree with him, but there are some rather suggestive links between Denairastas Clan and Black Lodge. This becomes especially interesting if the human who appeared in Praxis was the Black Lodge's Penultimate Master. And now the Black Lodge is also now directly at war with the Great Dragons as of their last council, so that adds another wrinkle.

     Let me guess, this guy kicked off the 'down-cycle' wyrm hunting mentioned in a few books.

Maybe.

However, most speculation has focused on the elves, specifically Aithne Oakforest (Who may be linked to DIVE, which might explain how DIVE has been able to acquire so much intimate information on the Great Dragons). That said, there are potentially far more of the Denairastas Clan than there are IEs. Or the immortal humans died off in the Fourth and Fifth Worlds without Denairastas's direct intervention. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mirikon]

My personal theory is that he (and his old clan of long-lived humans) has ties to the Black Lodge, but IIRC there's never really even been official teasers/hints in that direction.  It just makes sense to me, in the "long-lived humans, no elves allowed," sort of club of uber-magicians the BL has grown to be.

I agree with Critias that the Denairastas clan is most likely behind the Black Lodge. It makes sense, since they have always been high level initiate types with seemingly much more knowledge than they ought to be able to have given the 'no elves' policy, and the fact that the 'official' dragons are not big on sharing secrets with the Young Races. The Black Lodge also supposedly originated somewhere in central Europe, which is (roughly) the area where Iopos was during Earthdawn's time. Also, the organization goes up (as far as we know) to a 'Penultimate Master', suggesting that there is an Ultimate Master out there.

As far as the dragonslayer orders, my personal opinion is that they are descended from the Therans. While the Denairastas might have nudged them along and perhaps helped behind the scenes, the dragonslayer orders are simply too blatant and open for it to be the work of the Outcast.

[Crimsondude]

As far as the dragonslayer orders, my personal opinion is that they are descended from the Therans. While the Denairastas might have nudged them along and perhaps helped behind the scenes, the dragonslayer orders are simply too blatant and open for it to be the work of the Outcast.

Or they could be Hunters.

[Bull]

Nothing happened.  ED is licensed to a totally different company now, and since that character was never mentioned in Shadowrun, he likely never will be now.

Yeah, not the answer you were looking for, I know.

[Sendaz]

so the scale of Scary goes  Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps?

[Killstring]

Nothing happened.  ED is licensed to a totally different company now, and since that character was never mentioned in Shadowrun, he likely never will be now.

Yeah, not the answer you were looking for, I know.

Nah, it's cool. Just so I'm clear, the cutoff is based on whether or not anything from ED was mentioned in a Shadowrun source, yes? There's already plenty there, and FASA 2.0 cannot dictate what I put in my own games, so all's well.

Mostly was just curious, as there's some pretty compelling possibilities; could be Lofwyr (I know this was debunked by German fans. All hail German Fans), the Black Lodge (seems like this was hinted at), the force behind Atzlan (in the ED Dragons PDF, the Outcast seemed pretty scientifically curious in regards to blending Horrors and Things That Are Not Horrors) or could just not have shown up yet.

Considering that the next Shadowrun game I GM was always likely to delve into what's up in Dragonland -- specifically, what Hestaby's doing these days -- I may just mention that Denaiastas is going to show up, and then have runs involving all of the above.

(Edit: I can spell FASA, I swear)

[psycho835]

so the scale of Scary goes  Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps?

...You mean you didn't know?! 

[Bull]

Nah, it's cool. Just so I'm clear, the cutoff is based on whether or not anything from ED was mentioned in a Shadowrun source, yes? There's already plenty there, and Fase 2.0 cannot dictate what I put in my own games, so all's well.

I forgot a second smiley tag in there, as I was mostly just being snarky (in a fun way, not a mean way).  But yeah, this is pretty much it.  Shadowrun and ED already had a bit of a solid divide to them anyway, because even the couple immortals that appeared in both tended to have different names to them.  But yeah, nuFASA isn't going to tell us we can no longer use something that was previously established in Shadowrun that refers back to ED.  By the same token, we're not going to pull any more direct ED references out either. 

The connections are still there, but...  There's not much point to really digging into the 4th world much further for Shadowrun.  Rather, it's better for the game as a whole if we focus on the 6th world and move forward.  I doubt you'll see much direct usage or references to 4th world stuff, but that doesn't mean it's gone by any means.

And as you say, the Game Police aren't gonna kick down your door if you want to use that stuff more directly in your home game

[Crimsondude]

In my totally lay view, with limited information and totally not giving actual legal advice or analysis, it seems that the IP rights are so complicated as far as consumers are concerned that it's just easiest for fans to take Bull's statement in his first post at face value.

Though I'd miss the opportunities to fuck with you all if you did.

so the scale of Scary goes  Lawyers>Horrors>CFD>Bugs>Shedim>Corps?

Yep.




I do want to point out that I also side with the conservative view for another reason, and that is selfish: I want to create my own shit, and not be hindered by someone else's creation (even with the considerable liberties we can and have taken with them). If I'm not going to own my work product, I'd at least like there to be something original to show for the effort.

[Grinder]

Who took Harlequin and Aina into the late SR4 books?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Oh, I'm gonna have words with that guy.

Anyhow.  I personally would say that after Deniwhateverthehellitsnameis did yet another stupid thing during the 4th World, the GDs (and maybe IEs) hunted down him, his dragons, and all their associated humans - quite possibly using a spell like the one Sirrurg used on Cali - and put them into the ground.  Considering the non-canonical (but still nicely interesting) bit about the start of the Black Lodge that's floating out there, I like mine.