[MijRai]

"Dracoforms" is a fancy term for dragons, and Sapience is a "common" power for them according to page 407. Drakes, as far as I can tell, are metahumans (and therefore sapient) with dragon powers.

No, the other drakes.  Fire and ice and sea drakes.  The non-sentient dracoform critters that live on Kamchatka, Iceland/Greenland, etc.

So you mean the ones from SR4 Running Wild, not the Dracoforms in SR5 Core.

I mean the ones from there, and from all the other editions as well. 

[Michael Chandra]

Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.

[MijRai]

Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.

Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions...  It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet.  Sure, the GM can go 'nope, not for you' about it; they can do that about practically anything in the setting.  GM discretion isn't an automatic 'no'. 

[Namikaze]

Regardless - the confusion was about the use of the term "drake."

[Triskavanski]

20 karma = 10 BP, which was the Way price in 4th as I remember. And given the PP discount is not outrageous in most games, outside of Street level.  IMO of course

I don't think that's true, no.  At least, in terms of qualities.  For one thing, you were allowed 35 BPs of qualities, and now 25 karma pts of qualities.  If anything, 1 karma is worht several BPs.

Well not to mention that you start off with 400 bp.

But also the ways back in 4th gave you access to a super adept power, generally, along with discounting even .25 cost abilities and every level of an ability.

Now the most you can earn back is 1.5 pp, provided each power you pick is a 1pp and you have 6 magic points. But most have really only .5 pp powers and maybe one or two 1pp.

[Michael Chandra]

Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.

Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions...  It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet.

You are missing the point. Please read my posts better.

[MijRai]

Given how we're talking SR5... Besides, spells, especially houseruled ones, still fall under GM discretion. So nothing stops them from going "No, that one doesn't seem to exist or at least to be on the market." Just like how a GM can decide specific gear simply isn't available. Since these spells would require expert intimate knowledge of the subject, it seems quite fair that potentially really unbalancing variants do not exist.

Given that we're talking about Shadowrun, and they are canon critters in most editions...  It's just a matter of statting it up over the course of 15-30 minutes, as one hasn't been released yet.

You are missing the point. Please read my posts better.

And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with.  I'm not missing your point, I'm of the mindset that it's invalid. 

[ZeConster]

And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with.

You mean the part that was irrelevant to the argument? Yeah, shame on him.

[MijRai]

And you actively cut out a portion of what I replied with.

You mean the part that was irrelevant to the argument? Yeah, shame on him.

It was a response to his irrelevant comment on the topic, so I guess it could be considered irrelevant as well.  Thanks for pointing out how both were useless to the point at hand!

[ZeConster]

No, thank you for being polite about people disagreeing with you on something.

[Namikaze]

None of this has to do with the topic - so rather than letting this thread get locked, let's quit bickering over tone and verbiage on the forums.

[Marcus]

Under RAW, Ways are vastly to expensive to be viable, forget Ways until they have their cost decreased, they are simply an epic waste of karma. Not one of the granted powers is worth 20 quality points.

[Michael Chandra]

I got Adepts running out of easy initiations, which would have made 20 karma at chargen (and spending a few more on getting a quality aftewards, so basically a price of ~25 karma) actually worth it for saving a total of 1+ PP. Granted, I allowed them to start with extra karma spent, so they easily got 3 Initiations (didn't allow more), but the guy who's currently almost at 5 is really restricted already. Only reason he got that far was because I allowed the Nine Paths to serve as a replacement of the Arcana+Intuition Extended Test, since there's 45% max chance to make that roll, and only the first few Paths. Without that ruling, he'd already have had to pay a decent bit of karma for training Arcana since I don't allow Edge on Initiation tests.

So yeah, definitely at the point where 20 karma for a way would actually have been worth it for him, to get more punch out of his PP.

[ZeConster]

While I agree that 20 Karma feels like too much (15 would be more reasonable, and perhaps making them similar to martial arts in that they don't count as Qualities would be better), there are some interesting powers.

• Supernatural Prowess (Athlete's Way Metamagic) really starts kicking in at Initiate Grade 3+ (effective Agility 9+ for a Combat Turn, 4+ times per day)
• Claws (Beast's Way Enhancement), far as I can tell, seems compatible with things like Elemental Body and cyberimplant Spurs (or at least until they errata-nerf it 9 months from now).
• Shadow Touch (Invisible Way Enhancement) means you don't have to wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, and Stillness of the Void (Invisible Way Metamagic) is valuable when trying to sneak up on mages.
• Fae-Touched (Speaker's Way Metamagic), at higher grades, will boost your face's effective Charisma, while Presence can be used to boost, say, Negotiation; again, getting stronger at higher grades

On a semi-related note, I don't really get the Hot Qi enhancement: the corebook doesn't mention a limit on the force of a single focus, just a [Magic x 5] limit on total Force - and the same goes for SR4A.

Only reason he got that far was because I allowed the Nine Paths to serve as a replacement of the Arcana+Intuition Extended Test, since there's 45% max chance to make that roll, and only the first few Paths. Without that ruling, he'd already have had to pay a decent bit of karma for training Arcana since I don't allow Edge on Initiation tests.

So yeah, definitely at the point where 20 karma for a way would actually have been worth it for him, to get more punch out of his PP.

I got Arcana 4 at chargen: while writing a Thesis would have required teamwork tests from an instructor, I can get 6 hits on average in 3 months, so Initiating itself isn't the issue. And yes, getting Beast's Way did save me 0.75PP for 15 Karma (since it also gave me a totem), compared to 20 Karma post-discount for my upcoming 5th Initiation.

[Marcus]

15 for a non-quality restricted way would I expect be viable. 
I mean if you look at how power points are priced, you have to see very clearly you need to be at least a mid grade initiate before you can ever possibly begin getting your points worth out of them, and that assumes you can get 100% effect, which isn't possible for many of the ways as the power selection is to restricted.

Though making it non-quality opens up a quality loop hole. Which is something I don't think would be a great, though to be fair it's a small hole.