[Michael Chandra]

Not being able to translate everything in concept is one thing, but taking orders literal without any leeway is rather unbelievable for a creature that is both directly linked to your mind and in possession of higher mental stats than you. If the player has to start plotting Wish spells when using a service, the GM is likely needlessly being a jerk.

[ZeConster]

Imveros, I'll have to disagree on the "know nothing of our world" part - spirits have a gossip network that works better than any human's (mess with one spirit, and every spirit knows somehow), and they're considered Untrained (not Unaware) in any skill they don't have, so by now they'll know quite a bit about our world. Plus who knows how long spirits live? Maybe there's old, wizened spirits that have been around since the Fourth World and complain about how things were so much harder back then and spirits these days don't know how good they have it.

[Shrazkil]

The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.

Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.

[Top Dog]

I have to admit, having to set aside almost all your karma during chargen is a pain. I certainly wouldn't have minded some spare for foci and qualities and whatnot.

But what you get for it - assuming you spend it on sensible things - is certainly worth it at the cost. Improved Reflexes - a staple for most - is a steal at 17.5 karma, and if you put it into skills you'd almost certainly get more from it then you would from spending straight karma into it. Other things, if they even are replaceable with tech or spells, will almost certainly cost more too. Remember, adepts gladly pay for initiations and karma increases just to get more power points, and those are a lot more then 5 karma.

The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.

[Michael Chandra]

The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.

I did?_? I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.

[Tarislar]

As for the PP after chargen: One of my houserule concepts for it is treating them akin to Qualities: 10 karma after chargen, and if you raise your Magic you can also get extra that way. Has a risk of making them too powerful in the end.

Just to clarify, Do you mean FREE for raising your Magic like a Regular Adept, or just buying them for that "open slot"?

[Michael Chandra]

Buying them for the open slot. So if you got 5 Magic at chargen and get 4 Power Points, Initiate once for 1 PP and raise Magic from 5 to 7, you'd have 4/7 'Magic' PP and 1 through Initiation, so could buy 3 more for 10 karma each. I'm not sure about allowing this past 6 though, and truth be told I cannot remember what I discussed with Top Dog.

[Tarislar]

I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.

Not a fan of Double after Char-Gen.  That turns them into Positive Qualities instead of Magical Abilities.
But I could see them being even more than 5K, 7-8 isn't unreasonable IMHO. 
Though at 5K they are a nice option to exchange with spells in the CG process.

Actually, I just thought of an idea, it gets kind of complex but, I think it could work.
PP Cost is 8, Pre & Post Gen, up to your Magic Attribute.
Spells Can be Exchanged for PP at a cost of 3 Added Karma.

Now your talking some really diverse set ups at Char-Gen for MA's.  They can have Cash & Qualities & Full PP but would sacrafice spells.
They could have a mix of lower levels of them all & bind a foci too, & still be able to grow after CharGen as Adepts & Casters.



So for example, just off the top of my head something like this.

Focused Concentration-4  (16)
Mentor Spirit  (5)

3 Spells  (0)
2 Power Points for Spells  (6)
2 Power Points  (16)

7 Karma to Cash  =  $14,000

Sure, I could build that same build now for 48 Karma & have 2 More spells, but I couldn't grow those last 2 PP ever. 
I kind of like the idea of a little more diversity at Chargen & with growth but having the costs be a bit higher.
I also kind of like that it might lead to more situations like you had in SR2-3 where someone was only partially good at both the Adept & Caster sides instead of able to do both of them awesome but w/o any positive qualities or cash or skills.

[Michael Chandra]

I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.

Not a fan of Double after Char-Gen.  That turns them into Positive Qualities instead of Magical Abilities.

That is the idea yes. They want the ability to get them after chargen to get other stuff at chargen, likely stuff they can't get later or only at raised price. So by treating them as Qualities cost-wise, this option is provided but at a price. A free trade is giving them an extra option, an that goes violently against what I believe is a big aspect of SR5: Everything at a price. If they want the extra freedom, it will cost them more than a break-even option. You want those extra contact points? Start the game with Quick Healer or with a quality you can forget about getting after chargen? Need that extra bit of cash to have better survival odds? It will cost you. I'm not adding an extra way for them to get Power Points without it costing them extra.

[All4BigGuns]

The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.

Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.

No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.

[Shrazkil]

The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.

Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.

Oh god, i do not know what kind of builds you make, but i could make some hardcore munchkin builds if that was the case, being able to afford a full 25 points of positive qualities, as well as having money left over for Karma, would be broken, no matter how you look at it. Luckily  we have the burden of proof being the designers change to 5PP, to back up the opinion of less than 5 being overkill.

No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.

[All4BigGuns]

The 5 point cost is still overkill. Whether 2 per point was too low or not is beside the point. The fact remains that 3 or 4 per point would be more appropriate since it removes the requirement that no other character type is held to. That being that the Mystic is required to take Negatives or lose out on one or more Power Points permanently. Three points per is the best, since it still leaves a good amount remaining for the 'tweaking' that the generation Karma was ostensibly put there.

Oh god, 3 points per would still be rediculous, they have full casting ability, minus projection, so PP are a luxury that if you want every one of, you need to sacrifice.

No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.

Oh god, i do not know what kind of builds you make, but i could make some hardcore munchkin builds if that was the case, being able to afford a full 25 points of positive qualities, as well as having money left over for Karma, would be broken, no matter how you look at it. Luckily  we have the burden of proof being the designers change to 5PP, to back up the opinion of less than 5 being overkill.

And this is exactly the point I've been making all along. The 5 point cost is only there because of people crying over "hardcore munchkin builds", but what wasn't considered was that the "hardcore munchkins" aren't going to be hit that hard by it whereas a player making a more normal character completely gets the shaft (basically 5 points per Power Point turns it into "go munchkin or go home").

[Dracain]

Is-is this conversation still a thing?  I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released.  I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die.  I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well. 

As for my two cents, I feel that the 5 karma cost is perfectly fair, especially given all that MAs get.  While I don't feel that MAs beat out Mages beat out Mages in their own area, I do feel that using Astral Projection as a major selling point isn't a very strong argument, as it is too variable in use from GM to GM. 

[Ariketh]

Is-is this conversation still a thing?  I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released.  I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die.  I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well. 

Yes, and you kept it going by replying. (Oh, crap. So did I!) But I agree on both counts.

-Ariketh

[ZeConster]

Is-is this conversation still a thing?  I mean, I thought this all got hashed out back when the book released.  I must say I find it humorous that well over a year later this conversation refuses to die.  I bet a progressive recoil thread is on the way soon as well.

Someone asked about the rules, and A4BG is very vocal about his opinion on the matter.