[Michael Chandra]

If it makes you guys feel better, I'm sticking to "full action phase no firing" myself. Outside Missions that is. Inside Missions I'm following the errata.

[Namikaze]

No. No it would not. Number one, it keeps the Power Point cost below the threshold of being required to take a Negative just to get your full allotment (granted 4 does this, but there's number two. Number two, it leaves a halfway decent amount for 'tweaking'. Having 7 Karma left after getting your full Power Point allotment is not overpowered no matter who claims it is.

Why should a mystic adept get to have their "full allotment" of power points?  In previous editions with mystic adepts, they had to choose how to split their Magic rating between spellcasting/summoning and their adept abilities.  Therefore it was completely unrealistic to have a mystic adept with Magic 6 for their "mystic" portion, and 6 power points for their "adept" portion.  The only way to do it in previous editions was to have 12 Magic and split it in half.  Even if a mystic adept has to take negative qualities in this edition, at least the option is available.

[Top Dog]

The only thing I'd change is the requirement to buy it all at chargen (like Michael did in our game), as that's the biggest annoyance when building a MA - you pretty much have to buy them all at the start. Leaving the option open to buy some later - even at an inflated cost - would really help with a lot of builds.

I did?_? I cannot remember whether I offered Spell Slots, doubled cost after chargen or both.

You offered both, though I didn't take you up on the spell offer.

[Namikaze]

They were practically unusable in previous editions as well. They gained potential for being usable with the new edition, but unfortunately the 5 karma per Power Point pushed them back toward the other (at least without "going munchkin or going home").

That argument loses me a little bit.  The original design of mystic adepts wasn't powerful enough, so they've been boosted.  It's been explained by two or three developers that I've seen that the original design intent was to make the power points cost 5 karma, but there was a mistake.  Why not just take the fact that they're capable of being extremely powerful now and be happy with it?  I mean, this discussion has been going on almost as long as SR5 has existed.  No one once has said that it was a good thing that mystic adepts can now get a full compliment of power points and Magic rating at creation.

[All4BigGuns]

They were practically unusable in previous editions as well. They gained potential for being usable with the new edition, but unfortunately the 5 karma per Power Point pushed them back toward the other (at least without "going munchkin or going home").

That argument loses me a little bit.  The original design of mystic adepts wasn't powerful enough, so they've been boosted.  It's been explained by two or three developers that I've seen that the original design intent was to make the power points cost 5 karma, but there was a mistake.  Why not just take the fact that they're capable of being extremely powerful now and be happy with it?  I mean, this discussion has been going on almost as long as SR5 has existed.  No one once has said that it was a good thing that mystic adepts can now get a full compliment of power points and Magic rating at creation.

If playing by the rules, if for whatever reason, no Negatives are taken for a Mystic Adept character (most likely because none of the Negatives fit the character) that character loses out on at least one Power Point on a permanent basis (even through advancement, they're still behind by however many they did not get). No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.

[8-bit]

If playing by the rules, if for whatever reason, no Negatives are taken for a Mystic Adept character (most likely because none of the Negatives fit the character) that character loses out on at least one Power Point on a permanent basis (even through advancement, they're still behind by however many they did not get). No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.

Thinking about it some more, 5 karma per point is actually somewhat reasonable. It's true, you have to take Negative Qualities to get all of them, but that's the price to pay. Unless I'm mistaken (which I might be), your main qualm is that if you don't take them all at character creation, then you can't get them ever again. I think the simplest, and probably best solution, would be to just track them and you can pay 5 karma to get another point, up to your maximum magic.

[8-bit]

I don't consider myself very Anti-Mystic Adept at all. In fact, in their current form, I find them rather unplayable (too hard to juggle different priorities and karma to get anything I want). I would much prefer them to be cheaper, but I think you run into the problem where they become somewhat unbalanced as they can get all the spellcasting of a magician and 7 power points if they take negative qualities. I still think tracking them and paying 5 karma per point after character creation is a decent compromise. Sort of balances a power point to a spell, which is kind of what Mystic Adepts are about; do you go more spell slinging or more adept innate powers?

I guess I wouldn't mind 3 karma per point, but then you get into munchkiners and min/maxers (I consider myself to be in the latter category) who would abuse a lot of their power. It's not like losing Magic is as easy in SR5 as it was in SR4, so it is a relatively safe route to choose, although it does come with it's own risks. There's basically very little that limits a Mystic Adept who has their full potential unlocked, at least, not compared to the other magical archetypes.

[Namikaze]

The munchkins will always exist amongst players of just about any game (barring old-school board games like Monopoly or Yahtzee). Their antics should not affect the design of a game because doing so just means that the more 'normal' players really need to dip into munchkinism or fall farther and farther behind.

Let's talk a bit about the design of the game.  In previous incarnations, the design was to make mystic adepts split their Magic rating, giving them some very hard, ostensibly unfair choices to make.  As stated by numerous developers and insiders, the original design of the current edition was to have the mystic adepts pay 5 karma per point.  Ultimately, this isn't too much different from the previous editions, but it makes the choices a little easier.  Going by previous editions, most mystic adepts just took the number of power points required to get them Improved Reflexes level 3.  That meant they had 2 Magic for spellcasting and conjuring, and 4 Magic for power points.  In this edition, you can do the same thing for 20 karma at character creation, and still get your full 6 points of Magic.  I'd say that it's a fair compromise.

The design changed a little bit, and in the favor of the mystic adept.

On the topic of the "anti-mystic" comment: I think that's unfair and an incorrect appellation for those of us that have a differing opinion.  Quite frankly, I find it a bit offensive.  To suggest that because people disagree with you, that they're against a whole segment of the game is just rude.  What I've pointed out to you is that the changes to the mystic adept have actually been positive for the archetype.  You're saying it's not positive enough.  You've been saying it for months, despite what the developers have stated was the original intention, despite the changes made in the errata, and ignoring the evidence that I have brought to you that the changes made were good for mystic adepts.

[Poindexter]

I've thought about playing a mystic adept a few times, but no astral projection always tips me back to full mage.

[Shrazkil]

The munchkins will always exist amongst players of just about any game (barring old-school board games like Monopoly or Yahtzee). Their antics should not affect the design of a game because doing so just means that the more 'normal' players really need to dip into munchkinism or fall farther and farther behind.

Let's talk a bit about the design of the game.  In previous incarnations, the design was to make mystic adepts split their Magic rating, giving them some very hard, ostensibly unfair choices to make.  As stated by numerous developers and insiders, the original design of the current edition was to have the mystic adepts pay 5 karma per point.  Ultimately, this isn't too much different from the previous editions, but it makes the choices a little easier.  Going by previous editions, most mystic adepts just took the number of power points required to get them Improved Reflexes level 3.  That meant they had 2 Magic for spellcasting and conjuring, and 4 Magic for power points.  In this edition, you can do the same thing for 20 karma at character creation, and still get your full 6 points of Magic.  I'd say that it's a fair compromise.

The design changed a little bit, and in the favor of the mystic adept.

On the topic of the "anti-mystic" comment: I think that's unfair and an incorrect appellation for those of us that have a differing opinion.  Quite frankly, I find it a bit offensive.  To suggest that because people disagree with you, that they're against a whole segment of the game is just rude.  What I've pointed out to you is that the changes to the mystic adept have actually been positive for the archetype.  You're saying it's not positive enough.  You've been saying it for months, despite what the developers have stated was the original intention, despite the changes made in the errata, and ignoring the evidence that I have brought to you that the changes made were good for mystic adepts.

When it comes down to it, i am not sure what the Logic of A4BG's argument is.

You are upset, that if you want a character with no drawbacks, you should be able to have all the plus side too.....but you aren't a munchkin. Those 2 things do not mesh. Mystic adepts are my favorite archetype, as seen by anyone who is on the character creation page a lot lately. I Instinctively (via common sense of a game mechanic) understand there are going to be some hard choices, and things you are just going to have to get once gameplay starts, because of how powerful you start out, and then can continue to become.

No 2 ways around it, at 2-3karma per PP, you are getting a "cake and eat it too" situation. Just because someone might not know how to build properly, doesn't change that fact. If you are this concerned about poor strategic builders not being punished by the current restrictions, then simply houserule it down, i am not seeing anyone short of new players that do not know any better, agreeing this should be a thing.

[ZeConster]

No other character type in the entire game loses out on something permanently without taking Negative Qualities. This is simply unacceptable.

They lose out on something nobody else gets. How horrible.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Enh.  My solution works for me. 

[Sternenwind]

Enh.  My solution works for me. 

side with Ouroboros

In our round, we too just skiped this guano and created a new attribute for adepts and adepts powers. Giving mystical adepts two magical attributes .

[RickySpanish]

I guess I should say i'm sorry for asking lol. I just joined this forum and had no idea about the argument this would start. the 5 karma a point is fine, and I can use negative qualities to max out if I need too. my concept character can be made pretty close to my ideal set up at generation, and with several runs under my belt i can get the other skills and abilities together to round out. my idea for my character just seems to mesh well with the idea of a mystic adept, but i guess a full mage would probably also work ,but would lack the physical quality I was looking for.

[Shrazkil]

I guess I should say i'm sorry for asking lol. I just joined this forum and had no idea about the argument this would start. the 5 karma a point is fine, and I can use negative qualities to max out if I need too. my concept character can be made pretty close to my ideal set up at generation, and with several runs under my belt i can get the other skills and abilities together to round out. my idea for my character just seems to mesh well with the idea of a mystic adept, but i guess a full mage would probably also work ,but would lack the physical quality I was looking for.

You are fine , just a big can of worms for some people , but it gets post counts up, and activity is usually a good thing.