[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Real Name: Caitlin
Achievement Unlocked: New Street Name!! (Shadowcat, Rum Tum Tugger)

[Beaumis]

You say it's an easy trade. That is EXACTLY why you should realize it shouldn't be allowed that way. MAs are already balanced, and giving them yet more freedom without a single actual price is completely unnecessary. When all the MA has to do is pay the 5 Karma after chargen for the spell, rather than 5 karma for the PP now, you're no different than someone letting you buy the PP after chargen at the same price. No, in fact you're even nicer, because not all builds require all those Spell Slots. So you're giving the Mystic Adepts a massive freebie without any significant cost or risk. And that is ANYTHING but small. A small rule change with massive consequences cannot be considered small by any measure.

You're extrapolating from some builds ("not all") needing less spells to the universal statement that allowing spells for PP one for one would unbalance them overall.That's making a lot of assumptions. Buying spells after character generation carries time as well as financial cost in contrast to chargen, where they cost five karma and nothing else. MA's start with either 10, 7 or 5 spells. I can see a build being fine with less than ten spells but seven is already very few and five is the bare minimum.

The issue is that people feel obligated to buy all six PP at chargen because they are impossible or very expensive to get post chargen.With your two spells for one PP change you fix nothing because no one would actually make use of that rule unless you also remove the opportunity to buy PPs for five karma a pop. If you removed buying PPs for five karma, you'd change the balance of MAs which ýou say is currently fine.

[Sternenwind]

Real Name: Caitlin
Achievement Unlocked: New Street Name!! (Shadowcat, Rum Tum Tugger)

dont get it 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Ref: Namikaze's newborn (Caitlin 'Shadowcat'), the musical 'CATS'.

[Herr Brackhaus]

A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.

The problem with this system comes into effect after character creation.  A player can easily replace that lost spell slot for 5 karma after character generation.  They cannot buy a power point after character generation.  This means that someone could easily sacrifice 6 spell slots for 6 power points, spending 0 karma at character creation, and then spending 30 karma later to replace those spell slots.  It is, in effect, allowing a player to buy power points after character creation.

Thus, the argument by many is that if you allow spells to be traded for power points, why not just allow power points to be bought after character creation?  My argument is that mystic adepts could never have 6 power points and 6 Magic points, so why should people complain if it costs a bit more to actually be able to achieve that desired goal?  As I type this, my two week old daughter is doing the same thing.  She cries when she's on her back because she wants to be on her side, but then she cries on her side because she's not on her back.

That's a fair argument, Namikaze.

I'd counter by stating that they would be limited to their current MAG score, and that they could only ever buy/trade this way for Power Points that were available to them at character generation.

I would also agree that I believe Mystic Adepts are playable just fine as they are right now. Trading a Spell for a Power Point would be my vision of the easiest (albeit most impactful) way of addressing the potential issue of Power Points being "lost".

[Top Dog]

A spell (beyond your Priority allocation) during character generation costs 5 karma; a Power Point costs 5 Karma. I would likely allow (or request) that a single spell slot be allowed to substitute for a Power Point.

The problem with this system comes into effect after character creation.  A player can easily replace that lost spell slot for 5 karma after character generation.  They cannot buy a power point after character generation.  This means that someone could easily sacrifice 6 spell slots for 6 power points, spending 0 karma at character creation, and then spending 30 karma later to replace those spell slots.  It is, in effect, allowing a player to buy power points after character creation.

Thus, the argument by many is that if you allow spells to be traded for power points, why not just allow power points to be bought after character creation?  My argument is that mystic adepts could never have 6 power points and 6 Magic points, so why should people complain if it costs a bit more to actually be able to achieve that desired goal?  As I type this, my two week old daughter is doing the same thing.  She cries when she's on her back because she wants to be on her side, but then she cries on her side because she's not on her back.

One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.

The rules as they stand are excellent for a quasi-magician that wants a bunch of powers on top of that package. 5 karma per PP is certainly not overpriced in that case. But something to help the Adept who wants some minor spellcasting on the side wouldn't be overpowered in the least in my opinion. Problem, though, is anything that helps the latter will probably overpower the former as well. That's why I like the 2 spells per PP option, btw; no sane "magician-adept" would take it, but less caster-focused characters might.


Mind you, the argument that MA's in former editions couldn't have both at the same time doesn't really work for me. While SR5 should certainly look back to earlier editions to inform flavor and perhaps guide the rules, those rules stand on their own and should be balanced on their own. As others noticed, MA's in former editions were kind of underpowered; them working differently in SR5 shouldn't be an automatic strike against changing them further away from that. MA being fine (and possibly too powerful) in SR5 is an argument against that, but that should stand on it's own merit, without consideration for how SR4 handled it.

[Michael Chandra]

I'm stepping out of the main debate until I hear back on a few PMs. One sidenote though:

Herr Brackhaus, a clarification request: Did you mean a SINGLE trade, or a 1:1 trade? Giving up 1 spell slot for 1 PP, or giving up as many as you want for 1 PP each? Because even if you did not mean the first, I am stealing it for the houserule topic.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I did mean a 1:1 trade of Spell for Power Point; Top Dog summarized my stance nicely, so I'll just refer to his last post.

And by all means, steal away; looks like there are plenty of options for houserules. 1:1, 2:1 exchanges of Spells to Power Points, a single Power Point for a single Spell, two for two, etc, buying Power Points after character generation as Positive Qualities, buying Power Points after Character Generation for X Karma (but only up to a certain value), etc.

[ZeConster]

One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.

This is true (although the Magic-increase-doesn't-give-a-PP-to-mystics nerf was necessary, it also makes it harder to be a spellcasting adept, rather than an adepting magician). It would perhaps be better to split Mystic Adepts into two categories, although I'm not sure how that would work. I'll try to think of a houserule.

[Shrazkil]

A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .

[Namikaze]

A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .

The problem there being that now power points are 7.5 karma at character creation.  The whole problem with swapping spells for power points is that spells can be re-purchased after character creation.

One (admittedly relatively minor) counterargument to be made is that, with the rules as they are now, it's very expensive to make a Mystic Adept that's high on the Adept and low on the Mystic side. You have to buy the 6 power points in that case, but can't not buy (some of) the spellcasting power that entails, so you end up paying out of your nose for something you don't want.

That is extremely true.  Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to do that is to go back to the split Magic system, wherein a person could spend 5 of their Magic on Adept stuff, and keep 1 for Mystic stuff.  That's an interesting perspective you've brought to the table though: is there a way in the current rules to make an adept with a little bit of magician?

[All4BigGuns]

...is there a way in the current rules to make an adept with a little bit of magician?

Currently, there is just skill focusing like taking Arcana and Assensing as your two magical skills from the priority listing. Trading spell slots for Power Points on top of the karma cost being there, would fix both the problem of losing out permanently on one or more and further help the more Adept focus Mystics be pulled off. Anything it does to "break" severely niche munchkin-build Mystics is a very small price to pay.

[Namikaze]

Anything it does to "break" severely niche munchkin-build Mystics is a very small price to pay.

I don't think a mystic adept getting additional spells later in character development is "severely niche."  I think it's expected behavior.  The problem is that it is, in effect, allowing someone to buy power points after creation.  To be honest, I don't know that I'd have a problem with the fundamentals of allowing someone to buy a power point after creation - it already happens as an option with Initiation.  It would just require some serious consideration before being thrown into the game.

[ZeConster]

I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.

• Magic: used for Conjuring and Sorcery skillgroups (including determining if Drain is Stun or Physical), spells, Magician metamagics
• Chi: used for Adept powers (including maximum ranks), Adept metamagics, power points (1 PP per point of Chi, limit still applies)
• Primary type (so highest value): Enchanting skillgroup, Initiating
• Losing Magic due to Essence decreases both kinds
• Mystic Adept (Adept who does some mystic stuff):
  
  • Get Chi normally
  • Pay 5 Karma per point of Magic, up to [Chi - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime, limit still applies)
• AdeptVersed/Versatile Mage (Mage who does some adept stuff):
  
  • Get Magic normally
  • Pay 5 Karma per point of Chi, up to [Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime)

Here's some of the things I think are good about this proposal:

• It solves the "you have to spend 30 Karma or you'll lose out on that thing nobody else gets ever" dilemma
  
  • Unless you get Exceptional Attribute (Magic) or Exceptional Attribute (Chi), both Mystic Adepts and Versed Mages can only invest 20 Karma into their secondary type at chargen
  • If you don't max your secondary type, you can still boost it post-chargen
• It allows for both Magician-first and Adept-first characters, adding more flavor to your character
• It ties your Chi to your Power Points, so no strange "9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations, plus it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your Chi and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together
• Aside from starting with 6 PP, you can do everything the current system allows and more

EDIT: Changed "Mage Magic" to "Magic" and "Adept Magic" to Chi, as per Lucean's names; also changed "Adept Mage" to "Versed Mage" or "Versatile Mage" to prevent acronym confusion with Aspected Magicians.

[Shrazkil]

A one time trade at character creation might be a good balance 3 spells : 2 pp .

The problem there being that now power points are 7.5 karma at character creation.  The whole problem with swapping spells for power points is that spells can be re-purchased after character creation.

Yes but it is signifying a giving up of power, to focus it elsewhere. Pp are still 5 at creation, so you are overall taking a hit for it. You can always just pay the karma to max the PP, so you aren't giving them access to something they cannot do.

More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.