[All4BigGuns]

More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.

Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.

[8-bit]

More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.

Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.

What are you buying that you can't afford an Armor Jacket, a gun, a commlink (granted not a Transys Avalon), and a low Lifestyle? I mean, I don't necessarily like how low of money a Mystic Adept has, but you can fit all of that in pretty easily. The gun isn't going to be a tricked out Assault Rifle or Sniper, but even a Pistol or Submachine Gun will do.

[All4BigGuns]

More often then not , what this would allow is adequate money trade in to afford sin and starting vehicle , which seems to be the problem area finding room for in most mysadept builds, unless you are human.

Not to mention armor (even something as simple as Armored Clothing), a non-magical means to be able to attack both close in and at range (gun and melee weapon), a comm link and a lifestyle over Street.

What are you buying that you can't afford an Armor Jacket, a gun, a commlink (granted not a Transys Avalon), and a low Lifestyle? I mean, I don't necessarily like how low of money a Mystic Adept has, but you can fit all of that in pretty easily. The gun isn't going to be a tricked out Assault Rifle or Sniper, but even a Pistol or Submachine Gun will do.

The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.

[Namikaze]

The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.

That's making some assumptions about who plays a Mystic Adept that I don't think are necessarily accurate.

I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.

This is intriguing.  I'll have to think on it some more, but it looks like it might be feasible.  A little more bookkeeping, but I think everyone's used to doing more bookkeeping to do what they want in SR. 

[MijRai]

I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways.  With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000).  Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary). 

[All4BigGuns]

I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways.  With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000).  Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary).

And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.

[MijRai]

And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.

Except gear is tweaking the character?  Just my personal opinion, but what they have does impact the way I look at them and how they can play. 

[All4BigGuns]

And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.

Except gear is tweaking the character?  Just my personal opinion, but what they have does impact the way I look at them and how they can play.

Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.

[Namikaze]

Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.

I have an idea.  Let's just get rid of the tough decisions entirely.  Everyone gets to make anything they want, no restrictions at all.

[MijRai]

[Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.

Instead of possibly misinterpreting what you said; please explain what you meant by that? 

[8-bit]

The Resources Priority most likely for a Mystic (Priority E) can give the Low Lifestyle and ONE Fake SIN that is worth buying, and that is it.

I think some of y'all are forgetting that you can spend Karma to get more nuyen; 1 Karma for 2,000 Nuyen is a great investment, and is still possible for a rule-as-is chargen Mystic Adept if you're eating Negative Qualities anyways.  With the base 6,000, you can afford either a good or cheap-but-tricked-out weapon or two (approximately 1,000) some decent armor (1,000, give or take), an acceptable commlink with a throw-away or two (1,000; you don't need a high Device Rating if you don't need security for your Wireless stuff), along with a shoddy SIN and a month of Squatter lifestyle (3,000).  Every point of Karma past that just enhances the basics and adds to your kit for whatever your focus is (kit for whatever role you fill, more lifestyle, more SINs, a personal vehicle if necessary).

And the more Karma you use up getting necessary "Everyman" gear, the less you have for the miscellaneous 'tweaking' (flavor or otherwise) in other areas that is supposed to be what that Karma is for.

I don't think you understand a Priority based system. If you have a problem with E for resources, you could always lowball skills, or metatype, or attributes. It's your damn pick. That's the point of a Priority system, is that you have to take a hit somewhere. If you really are that mad about E for resources not giving you enough money, just play Prime Runner games. That way you never have to spend karma for money because it is not "flavorful". You do realize the person who owns very little and has to rely on their own skills and magic is a flavorful roleplaying choice.

And no, this problem doesn't appear just for Mystic Adepts. Most adepts that I've made either take a hit to skills or Resources; most deckers I've made have to take a hit to Attributes. Let's not even start on Technomancers. So, Mystic Adepts are not alone in this problem.

[ZeConster]

[Also remember that a good chunk of what you use for Contacts comes from that pool, so the more you use for getting the necessaries, the less you can afford flavorful Contacts that may not be immediately useful on most occasions.

Instead of possibly misinterpreting what you said; please explain what you meant by that?

You get [Charisma x 3] "free" Karma to invest in Contacts, which isn't enough for most characters to get the contacts they want, so they invest extra Karma. Getting 6 Power Points costs you 30 Karma out of a maximum of 50, which leaves 20 Karma for rounding out skills, buying gear, getting extra contacts, and the like.

[MijRai]

You get [Charisma x 3] "free" Karma to invest in Contacts, which isn't enough for most characters to get the contacts they want, so they invest extra Karma. Getting 6 Power Points costs you 30 Karma out of a maximum of 50, which leaves 20 Karma for rounding out skills, buying gear, getting extra contacts, and the like.

Not what I meant, but thanks.  I was more curious about the 'flavorful contacts that may not be immediately useful' bit. 

[Lucean]

I think I have a houserule proposal which works. It splits Magic into two kinds (Magician and Adept) again, but instead of having to do a full split, you get one kind for free, and need to pay Karma for the other kind - but your secondary kind of Magic cannot go as high as the primary kind.

• "Mage Magic": used for Conjuring and Sorcery skillgroups (including determining if Drain is Stun or Physical), spells, Magician metamagics
• "Adept Magic": used for Adept powers (including maximum ranks), Adept metamagics, power points (1 PP per point of Adept Magic, limit still applies)
• Primary type (so highest value): Enchanting skillgroup
• Losing Magic due to Essence decreases both kinds
• Mystic Adept (Adept who does some mystic stuff):
  
  • Get "Adept Magic" normally
  • Pay 5 Karma per point of "Mage Magic", up to [Adept Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime, limit still applies)
• Adept Mage (Mage who does some adept stuff):
  
  • Get "Mage Magic" normally
  • Pay 5 Karma per point of "Adept Magic", up to [Mage Magic - 2] (post-chargen: 5 Karma and 1 week of downtime)

Here's some of the things I think are good about this proposal:

• It solves the "you have to spend 30 Karma or you'll lose out on that thing nobody else gets ever" dilemma
  
  • Unless you get Exceptional Attribute (Magic), both Mystic Adepts and Adept Mages can only invest 20 Karma into their secondary type at chargen
  • If you don't max your secondary type, you can still boost it post-chargen
• It allows for both Magician-first and Adept-first characters, adding more flavor to your character
• It ties your "Adept Magic" to your Power Points, so no strange "9 Magic and only 3 PP" situations, plus it's easy to remember how many PP you're supposed to have: just add your "Adept Magic" and the amount of PP you got from Initiations together
• Aside from starting with 6 PP, you can do everything the current system allows and more

This looks similar to what we implemented, although we don't have someone using that system atm.
Since we still use SR4 Karmagen it might not be fully applicable, though.

- MAGic governs Spellcasting, Summoning, Enchanting and Alchemy
- CHI governs PP, power limits, Way bonus options

Mystic adepts start with both attributes at 1 and they are independant of each other. Essence loss and initiation applies to both attributes.
This way you have an easier time starting out with both, but males it progressively harder to improve yourself.

Your system looks fine to be applied to the current rules.

[Beaumis]

@ZeCoster: One issue with your system is that it robs the MA (or AM in your terminology) of the option to initiate for a powerpoint (because the limit still applies).Also capping magic like that kind of kills the "Jack of all Trades" concept behind most MA builds that I have encountered.

Personally, I think the spells for powerpoint change is the best proposal for a solution we've had so far. Though, I do see a few issues with it:

1. Allowing the PP for spells swap frees up karma for other things. Some consider this a bug others a feature.
2. Allowing PPs to be bought with spell slots eliminates the cost or PP (almost entirely) for a build that focuses on the adept and summoning exclusively. If you don't want to cast spells, you don't need any.
3. The cost of a single spell at chargen is not really five karma. The cost of a spell beyond the budget given by priorites is five karma. This means that depending on which priority a character picks the value of a spell changes. This is made worse by the fact that the magic priority does three different things and the other two are likely prioritized higher than spells. Hence, if we equate one spell with one powerpoint, the cost of a PP bought with karma is fixed while the cost of a PP bought with a spell slot is variable.

One and two I don't consider much of a problem. Three however is more difficult to adress. Changing the amount of spells does not work as no one would buy PP at "double" the price. (Not truly double, but no matter what, spells are indivisible units and as such two will always be worth "more" than five karma, since you cannot buy them both back with five karma.) Making PP cost variable doesn't solve the problem either because then a ratio where the cost of a PP is lower or higher relative to a spell will inevitably arise. However, one thing is constant, no matter how much the cost of a single spell varies, it never becomes zero unless a character choses to forgo spellcasting altogether. Furthermore the changes in cost seem sufficiently small to me to not have an issue with it. (Skillpoints for example vary in cost as well.)

The most elegant solution, in my mind, would be to break the power of the magic priority and make them all give an even five tokens that can be used for powerpoints or spells at a 1:1 ratio. Then give players their spellcasting skill rating worth of free spells. Higher priorities would still get their free spells, if they pick spellcasting as a free skill. There'd be a few more spells to go around for mages overall, but I don't see that as much of an issue. Numbers can always be tweaked though.