[PiDub314]

Pg451-452 says that a standard mount can fit an assault rifle-sized or smaller weapon.  It seems obvious that a machine gun, assault cannon, grenade/missile/rocket launcher are all not smaller than an assault rifle.  But what about sniper/hunting rifles and shotguns?  Are they considered larger and need a heavy weapon mount?

[Michael Chandra]

General assumption is they are listed in order of size, roughly supported by concealment modifiers. So yes.

[Hibiki54]

Shotguns or sniper rifles don't need heavy weapon mounts.

[8-bit]

Shotguns or sniper rifles don't need heavy weapon mounts.

They do actually.

Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles.

Considering Assault Rifles are operated with the Automatics skill and Shotguns and Sniper Rifles with the Longarms skill, I would say that Shotguns and Sniper Rifles are larger than assault rifles.

Here's the Automatics skill. Bolded Emphasis is mine.

The Automatics skill covers a specific subset of firearms larger than handheld pistols but smaller than rifles. This category includes submachine guns and other fully automatic carbines.

Here's the Longarms skill. Bolded Emphasis is mine.

The Longarms skill is for firing extended-barrel weapons such as sporting rifles and sniper rifles. This grouping also includes weapons like shotguns that are designed to be braced against the shoulder.

Sniper Rifles have longer barrels and are larger than Assault Rifles. Shotguns may be similar length to Assault Rifles, but they require a lot more mass to keep them under control. I would say that Shotguns are larger in most situations. The fact that shotguns are Longarms seems to imply to me that they are larger than Assault Rifles, which means they need a Heavy Weapon Mount.

[Malevolence]

Yay, this argument again.


Rigger 5 can't get here soon enough.

[Imveros]

Core Rule book page 420

Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo.

+6 Katana, monosword, shotgun, assault rifle, sport rifle, crossbow
+8 Sniper rifle, bow, grenade launcher, medium drone

Seems RAW shotguns are the same size as assault rifles. Though sniper rifles do require a heavy weapon mount as they are 2 dice harder to hide due to size.

[Hibiki54]

Those are poor assumptions. You need a Heavy Weapon mount for any weapon that is classified under the Heavy Weapon skill. Machine guns, rockets, MLRS, assault cannons, etc

[Namikaze]

Those are poor assumptions. You need a Heavy Weapon mount for any weapon that is classified under the Heavy Weapon skill. Machine guns, rockets, MLRS, assault cannons, etc

They're not poor assumptions at all.  In fact, your assertion that the Heavy Weapon mount determination is based on a skill is completely false.

Standard weapon mounts may hold any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon and 250 rounds of ammo. Heavy weapon mounts count as two weapon mounts and can hold any weapon and up to 500 rounds of belted ammo or up to Body rockets/missiles.

Bolded for emphasis.  The determining factor is not a skill, but rather size.  Since concealability is the only factor we have for determining the relative size of two similar objects, it is completely logical to use the concealability chart to determine what goes into a standard weapon mount and what goes into a heavy weapon mount.

[8-bit]

All right, the point is made for shotguns, but not for Sniper Rifles. That's also a poor assumption that Heavy Weapon Mounts only include those under the heavy weapon skill. Just because they share a name doesn't mean that is the be all end all. I mean, I don't think I've seen an Assault Rifle in real life, but I can tell you Sporting Rifles and Sniper Rifles are really freaking long. I'm almost certain that they are larger than an Assault Rifle. I mean, Shotguns don't have much range in SR5 as is, so it's not a problem on a standard mount, but Sniper Rifles are a little ridiculous in my mind. Allowing an army of drones who can snipe anything from 500 meters away at character creation seems easily game breaking to me. If the factor is size, then Rifles are, in pretty much any way I can think of it, larger than Assault Rifles. There may be Assault Rifles that are as large as Sniper Rifles, but those are the exception, I think, rather than the norm. But hey, I have no idea, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Namikaze]

But hey, I have no idea, so maybe I'm wrong.

You're not wrong, 8-bit.  The thing is that most sniper rifles have nothing to make them smaller.  A LOT of assault rifles have collapsable stocks, or a bulpup configuration, which gives them substantially smaller size than a fully-extended rifle.  And most assault rifles are actually carbines, which are naturally shorter to begin with.  For instance, the M24, which is the assigned sniper rifle for the US Army, is between 43 and 46 inches long (there are variants on the basic M24 that make changes).  The M4 carbine, which is the standard assault rifle used by the US Army, is at most 33 inches long.  So you're looking at somewhere close to a foot of difference in length alone.

Let's go with a different country's weaponry for completeness.  The AK-47 is the most commonly used assault rifle in the world, hands down.  It measures about 33 inches in length as well.  There are going to be variations because there are a billion knock-offs out there, but the basic design is going to have it about the same length.  The SVD, the commonly-seen Russian sniper rifle, measures 35 inches with a collapsed stock (only on the SVDS) but realistically measures between 44 and 48 inches in length.

Sniper rifles ARE longer and more ungainly than assault rifles.  That's a fact that is definitely reflected in the concealability of the weapons.  And that's also why a sniper rifle does not fit the definition of "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" for a standard weapon mount.  I really hope we can finally put this to bed now.

[Michael Chandra]

Concealment basically notes Longarms >= Assault Rifles, though Concealment is not always just about size. Then we got automatics stating they're smaller than rifles, and the name "Longarms". All in all there is a lot of support to that the order in which the different Firearms are listed in the gear chapter, is pretty much the order of size (tasers aside). And then we can find the following info on wikipedia, "Shotguns generally have longer barrels than modern rifles." So there's no real support that the Longarms would not all be longer than assault rifles and thus Heavy Weapon Mount.

Not that Rigger V would make this more clear, since we had the same debate in previous editions and Arsenal did not make it more clear as far as I recall.

[Herr Brackhaus]

SR4A  and Arsenal both state that a normal sized weapon mount can hold an LMG size or smaller, while reinforced mounts can hold firearms larger than an LMG.

Seems the developers changed their minds on this in SR5 and went with an Assault Rifle instead of an LMG as the baseline.

I'd personally agree with 8-bit and Michael Chandra on this one; the text for the Automatics and Longarms skills clearly denote size, whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.

[Imveros]

whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.

what other factor could there be besides size? Using the argument "They are Called longarms for a reason is no better than saying heavy weapons mounts are only for things using the heavy weapons skill. The only gauge we have RAW is the concealment table. Anything else is just speculation till a more official source weighs in

[Michael Chandra]

Clumsiness, dimensions. But with firearms you tend not to go "it's smaller BUT tougher to conceal".

[Csjarrat]

whereas it is not clear to me that the concealability table is entirely based on size and might account for other factors as well as size.

what other factor could there be besides size? Using the argument "They are Called longarms for a reason is no better than saying heavy weapons mounts are only for things using the heavy weapons skill. The only gauge we have RAW is the concealment table. Anything else is just speculation till a more official source weighs in

true, in absence of hard rules, we'll have to fall back on a mix of common sense and GM's call.
There are after all, short shotguns like the T-250 that could have an argument made in their favour and the weapon mount rules are still pretty damn vague about whether or not their ammo capacity applies to non-belt-fed weapons.
Unfortunately, until we either get errata or expanded rules on weapon mounts, this is still going to continue to be a headache by RAW.