[jim1701]

Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it.  Size <> Concealability.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Watch this space, I presume.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18293.msg325421#msg325421

[Namikaze]

Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it.  Size <> Concealability.

How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles?  Size == size, yes?

[MijRai]

Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it.  Size <> Concealability.

How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles?  Size == size, yes?

That works for some sniper-rifles, but not really well for shotguns.  A short Defiance T-250 should be mountable with a normal mount at the least.

[Namikaze]

Almost every shotgun made is smaller than a sniper rifle.  Most of them are built for close quarters, which would make them on-length with carbines and assault rifles.  For example, the Benelli M4 is 38 inches long.

But yes, we could use some clarification on this, as individual models of all weapons will vary in size.  Which is why I think concealability is the best way to go - it definitely takes size into consideration, and really is the only facet of the game in which size matters.  Giggity.

[jim1701]

Until someone official explicitly states that shotguns and sniper rifles require a heavy weapon mount I'm not buying it.  Size <> Concealability.

How about the quotes I gave for actual real-world examples of sniper rifles vs. assault rifles?  Size == size, yes?

Not necessarily.  I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on.  For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel.  If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount?  I'm sorry I just don't buy it.  A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.  Length is but one dimension to measure by.  Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.

There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts.  I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that. 

[Hibiki54]

Not necessarily.  I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on.  For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel.  If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount?  I'm sorry I just don't buy it.  A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.  Length is but one dimension to measure by.  Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.

There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts.  I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.

Exactly my point

[Namikaze]

Not necessarily.  I have plenty of real world military background of my own to draw on.  For example, your average shotgun is about the same weight as an assault rifle and has similar dimensions except that they will typically be a few inches longer in the barrel.

Which I stated.

  If you expect to have me buy that a shotgun must use a heavy weapon mount?  I'm sorry I just don't buy it.

Actually, I'm saying that a shotgun goes into a standard mount - not sure why you think otherwise.

  A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.

Well, if you consider 10 inches and 2 or 3 pounds to be insignificant, then your military experience may not have involved ruck marches.

Length is but one dimension to measure by.  Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.

Except that when all other things are the same, or similar enough (and they're not terribly far off from each other, with a few exceptions for high-caliber sniper rifles like a Barrett) length is still wildly different between shotguns and sniper rifles.  And between assault rifles and sniper rifles.  But not between shotguns and assault rifles, as they're about the same size.  Again, I talked about this part.

There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts.  I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.

You could start with the rules, which state that the difference is that a standard mount holds "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon".  Since the rules state that size is the determining factor, and since most of the other factors of size are roughly the same (again, with the rare exception) length is the only factor that is wildly different.

I've stated all this like...  four times now.  The only reason for your arguments are because either you didn't read the rest of the posts in this thread, or you're trying to keep an argument going unnecessarily.

Fact: sniper rifles are longer and generally a little heavier than assault rifles.
Fact: shotguns are very nearly the same length and weight of an assault rifle.
Fact: the rules state to go by size when determining what can go on what mounting system.
Fact: unless we hear otherwise, the only logical outcome of the "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" quote is that a heavy mount can mount any weapon, including all heavy weapons and sniper rifles.  A standard mount can hold anything BUT a sniper rifle or a heavy weapon.

Exactly my point

Except that your "point" flies in the face of the rules completely.  It might be that it's simpler to say "heavy weapon == heavy mount."  But the book doesn't say that, which means it's a house rule at best.  If you guys want to talk about a house rule, then by all means go ahead.  Those of us that play the game by the rules will have to politely ask that you move your discussion to a house rule thread instead.  It's confusing the question that the OP and other people might have about what the book actually says.

[jim1701]

  A sniper rifle is also going to have similar weight and dimensions except for length and I don't necessarily see that requires the necessity of a heavy mount there either.

Well, if you consider 10 inches and 2 or 3 pounds to be insignificant, then your military experience may not have involved ruck marches.

Compared to the size and mass of the drone capable of carrying one, I consider it to pretty insignificant as a matter of fact.  And when you are humping at 60+ lb ruck, no I don't think a couple pounds either way are going to make a difference.

Length is but one dimension to measure by.  Measure by a different method (width, depth, mass or volume) and you could end up with a different result.

Except that when all other things are the same, or similar enough (and they're not terribly far off from each other, with a few exceptions for high-caliber sniper rifles like a Barrett) length is still wildly different between shotguns and sniper rifles.  And between assault rifles and sniper rifles.  But not between shotguns and assault rifles, as they're about the same size.  Again, I talked about this part.

And that is my point.  Any man portable weapon is going to be similar enough in size that, when mounted on a drone, it just isn't worth mentioning the difference.  Especially when a true squad portable weapon such as an M-60 is going to be 8-10 lbs heavier than most sniper rifles.  (Anti-material rifles such as the M-99 would be an exception though in game terms that would be more of an assault cannon than sniper rifle IMO.)

There is a extremely simple method to determine what weapon goes on what mount and that is by putting heavy weapons on heavy weapon mounts and putting all other weapons on standard mounts.  I just don't see justification in the rules for making it more complicated than that.

You could start with the rules, which state that the difference is that a standard mount holds "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon".  Since the rules state that size is the determining factor, and since most of the other factors of size are roughly the same (again, with the rare exception) length is the only factor that is wildly different.

Again, IMO that line is more fluff than rule.  It does not fall in line with the general classification of all weapon systems in general as put forth in the game.  It does not even fall in line with the rather lax attitude the game has towards encumbrance in general.

pg. 420  As long as the players are reasonable and don’t perpetually carry around every firearm and toaster in creation (with enough ammo and bread to operate them both continuously), weights and encumbrance aren't important.

I've stated all this like...  four times now.  The only reason for your arguments are because either you didn't read the rest of the posts in this thread, or you're trying to keep an argument going unnecessarily.

Fact: sniper rifles are longer and generally a little heavier than assault rifles.
Fact: shotguns are very nearly the same length and weight of an assault rifle.
Fact: the rules state to go by size when determining what can go on what mounting system.
Fact: unless we hear otherwise, the only logical outcome of the "assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon" quote is that a heavy mount can mount any weapon, including all heavy weapons and sniper rifles.  A standard mount can hold anything BUT a sniper rifle or a heavy weapon.

I did not ignore your posts though I'll concede I messed up referencing shotguns (though look up the size of an AA-12!) but I disagree thoroughly with your conclusions.  No where in the book is there adequate coverage regarding how to determine size of equipment regardless of how you measure it and to then place one line (poorly write like so many other lines in this book) and expect it to be the end of the subject on the matter?  No, I'm afraid not.

Now it is my intent to be civil here and I am not attempting to aggravate you or anyone else.  I have stated my position on the subject and I see nothing you have said that changes my mind.  I also feel you are not making the same attempt to be civil so this will be my last word on the subject barring an official statement.  I believe someone posted the question in the missions FAQ update thread so we may actually get an answer sooner or later. 

[Tarislar]

Oh for the good ole days when mounts were split at the LMG to MMG barrier.

[KarmaInferno]

Barrel length really should not be used as a determining factor on required mount type. They stick out of the firing port anyway, some will just stick out further than others.

What should matter is the stuff that HAS to be inside the turret. Firing mechanisms, ammo feeds, etc. What actually needs a more heavy duty reinforced mount structure?

I can't see shotguns or sniper rifles needing any heavier support structure than an assault rifle would.

Machineguns, launchers, etc I can definately see needing it, save for perhaps LMGs as those are often not that much bulkier than many battle rifles. But SR5 put the cut off at assault rifles. Okay, not that big a deal.

Simplest ruling would be "heavy weapons go in heavy weapon mounts, everything else fits un regular mounts."

I like simple.


-k

[Lethal Joke]

Best option until Rigger 5 comes out is to go by GM fiat.

As my group's GM, personally I go by Heavy Weapons needing to go on a Heavy Mount, everything else on a Standard Mount. With some exceptions for  weapons like the Terracotta Arms AM-47, Barret Model 122, and Auto-Assault (AA) 16.

(Damn, it's been awhile since I posted anything on this forum...)

[Whiskeyjack]

I can't see shotguns or sniper rifles needing any heavier support structure than an assault rifle would.

Machineguns, launchers, etc I can definately see needing it, save for perhaps LMGs as those are often not that much bulkier than many battle rifles. But SR5 put the cut off at assault rifles. Okay, not that big a deal.

Simplest ruling would be "heavy weapons go in heavy weapon mounts, everything else fits un regular mounts."

I like simple.

Tend to agree. And some shotguns or rifles are going to have less kickback than an AR, for example. I don't think barrel length matters at all to how study a mount is needed, it's more about the need for the mount to not be damaged or even targeting greatly affected by recoil, the size needs of the ammo feed, etc.

Another example of terribly vague writing, unfortunately. One should not feel the need to compare real-world guns in order to properly interpret a game rule.

[Xenon]

It say:
"any assault rifle or smaller-sized weapon"

It doesn't say:
"any non-heavy weapon"



At least it is clear that it can fit assault rifles

Then it depend on your reading.

Either they mean "any assault rifle-sized or smaller than assault rifle-sized weapon" or they mean "any assault rifle or any weapon that is classed as a smaller-sized weapon".

In either case it probably come down to a GM call...

But if the author had the intention that you could fit a long barrel sniper rifle in a standard mount and I would have been that author then I would have written "Any non-heavy weapon". As it is currently written my interpretation is that you can fit any of the small-sized weapons you find in the pistol skill, any of the medium sized weapons you find in the automatics skill (all the way up and including assault rifles) plus possible shotguns of the long barrel weapons that fit in under the longarm skill.
- But that you would need a heavy mount for really long range weapons such as light machine guns and sniper rifles.


Pistol (small weapons)
Automatics (medium sized weapons)
Longarms (long barrel weapons + shotguns)
Heavy weapons (really big stuff)



(sure, it would have been more simple if they made the cut at heavy weapons -- and you can still house rule it at that -- but the author did choose to make the cut at assault rifles.... you will have a really hard time convincing me that by RAW a sniper rifle would be "smaller in size" than an assault rifle or that a sniper rifle would be considered a "small-sized weapon").

[MijRai]

Something I find funny is that there's the Smart Firing Platform, which is basically an immobile shooting drone (with a much higher availability than a Doberman, at that).  Said platform (a tripod with some kit to allow it to move and a smart-link/computer) has no limits on what can be put on it.