[Fizzygoo]

Meh. I think this whole discussion is pointless...

Hehe, I do too. But I'm enjoying it, so please don't take my continued wall-of-text as anything hostile, just a further narrowing down; which is fun for me (though it annoys the hell out of my wife, hehe).

Judge Intentions. Okay, the Santa Claus verse Intuition was wrong. Should have been Santa vs. Logic (what do I know vs. what I'm being told) and we're all agreeing (I think) that Logic goes 1,2,3 for the young age categories.

In reading up on Intuition (SR4A, pg 67), "A character with little Intuition may be unobservant, may rarely think things fully through, or could simply be 'slow.'" Other than the unobservant, that sounds like the average kid....especially the rarely think things through and less so on the unobservant. So I'm still liking the average youngin' Intuition to progress at 1,2,3.

Yeah, I'm assuming I'm average for sneakiness (though I like to think I'm the shadow of your nightmare's shadow! hehe), but Perception's liked attribute is still Intuition and I tend to sneak on kids better than adults.

What's funny is I was assuming that the "no, no, no" attitude of little kids would speak to a higher Charisma, but SR4A, pg 67. "A whiny demeanor, a me-first attitude...are just a few traits that can give a character a low Charisma." Hehe, everyone hates the kid the store yelling, "BUT I WANT IT!!!"

What's nice about the 1,2,3 approach is that by bumping one or two mental attributes to +1 of the average that really speaks to their personality.

Now giving kids Con skill with Lying Specialization...perfect. Especially for the middle kids, they have to learn to manipulate the adults to get attention because the youngest are the newest and the oldest have the established order.

[Kot]

Judge Intentions. Okay, the Santa Claus verse Intuition was wrong. Should have been Santa vs. Logic (what do I know vs. what I'm being told) and we're all agreeing (I think) that Logic goes 1,2,3 for the young age categories.

Hell no. You're lying to them. Judge intentions, or just social conflict with Con on your side.

Now giving kids Con skill with Lying Specialization...perfect. Especially for the middle kids, they have to learn to manipulate the adults to get attention because the youngest are the newest and the oldest have the established order.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

And as for RL features, i just had to dress and take my little sister to school. She lost her homework picture somewhere yesterday and refused to do anything about it, throwing a silent tantrum. Meh. I'm not really a good parent substitute. =='

[Mystic]

Wait until they are actually YOURS, Kot. It changes the game entirely.

[Kot]

Not going to happen, as far as i'm concerned.

[Mystic]

Fair enough, but....that's what I said too.

[Fizzygoo]

Judge Intentions. Okay, the Santa Claus verse Intuition was wrong. Should have been Santa vs. Logic (what do I know vs. what I'm being told) and we're all agreeing (I think) that Logic goes 1,2,3 for the young age categories.

Hell no. You're lying to them. Judge intentions, or just social conflict with Con on your side.

Yeah but the section on Judge Intentions (SR4A, book at home) specifically states that it's emotive and not fact-detecting and something along the lines of "cannot be used as a lie detector." So a kid using Judge Intentions on being told about Santa Claus would, generally, get the feeling that the adult thinks its a good thing, where parent's have a fun time gearing up for the gift delivery, surprise, etc. The kids logic might (or might not) say, "wait a minute, flying reindeer, chimney diving, elves...well, elves exist, sure, but those others...?" But the Judge Intentions would be "mom and dad are in a good mood telling me about this guy that's going to sneak into the house later on."

[Ultra Violet]

I play a 8 year old technomancer girl (see avatar), we used existing rules as base for our house-rules.

Child
The character is a child. Gamemasters may modify certain Social test in both a positive or negative manner depending how an NPC will interact with the child. Since children are often underestimated due to their assumed naivety that may give a character an advantage. Due to their lack of development however, children have a basic Physical Condition Monitor of only 6 + (Body/2, round up). Physical and Mental attributes and Active skills are capped at Rating 5.
Child's Movement rate is reduced by 20% (round down).

Another house-rule isn't used because of the story of my PC but you could use it if you like.

Family Status
The family of the character covers her lifestyle expenses with a little pocket money. Neither lifestyle can be converted to money; payment is made directly by her parents or legal guardian.
To benefit from this quality, the character must also be a child. Additionally, should the character be caught breaking the law, the legal guardian has to manage with it (at the gamemaster’s discretion).
Pocket Money per month is (CHA + 1)% of the Lifestyle cost per month.

There are 2 ways to determine the family status lifestyle. But both aren't compatible with each other.

1. Quality buying Method

Street: Homeless family living in the streets.
Cost: Free

Squatter: The family of the child lives in one squatter area in the sprawl
Cost: 5 BP

Low: Her family is one of the many
Cost: 10 BP

Middle: Welcome to the Middle-class
Cost: 15 BP

High: One of the lucky ones
Cost: 20 BP

Luxus: Filthy rich, money isn't a problem
Cost: 25 BP

2. Edge test Method
The player or the GM makes a Edge test and the hits tell you where she come from.

Glitch = Street
No hits = Squatter
1-2 hits = Low
3 hits = Middle
4 hits = High
5+ hits = Luxus

The 2nd method is made for quick NPC, or player who loves to have a random background.

[savaze]

It's been a few years since I took psychology and physiology or studied these topics, so if anyone has more current or accurate info, but from what I remember... Major developmental stage are reached at ages 6, 8, and puberty (11-13 as mentioned before).  At 6 identity is clearly established.  At 8 right and wrong is understood.  At puberty physical development is pushed into overdrive, with physical peak being between around 22; hormonal development peaks at 26 in men, with women having a lot of hormonal stages throughout life.  Shrinks argue about peak intellectual development: some say that raw "mental attributes" are always present just realized through exposure to life; others say mental development is in constant flux throughout life; etc etc.  In our society children are largely dismissed as not being able to perform on the same levels as adults.  

What's that mean in game terms???  Whatever you want to interpret it as.  Some kids develop physically/mentally quicker than others, only to quit/slow their developing later on.  Others just have seemingly perfect genes and develop superbly throughout life (the mobs vs protagonist rule).  I know an 11 year old that plays soccer at a national level that can perform better than most college players.  When I was in the 9th grade I knew a guy who could have practically been "Doogie Howser", he was in 12 grade at 12 years old.  There is a guy I know at church who went to High School with a kid who while one year he was taking geometry with and the next year he was studying the theorems the kid came up with that were published in his trigonometry books.  *I'll have to ask what theorems they were as math doesn't seem to be my strong suite past Algebra*

Kids can also develop at different stages based on circumstances and culture.  I've seen a three year old foraging for food and raising several younger kids, while later in life stealing became an unconscious act and their sense of right and wrong was severely differing from social norms.  

In game terms it means whatever you want, Shadowrun has it's own cultural norms.  Maybe the kids are rapidly developing due to chemicals and waste products that they live in or their rapid maturating comes with psychological penalties.  An adjusted surprise penalty could constitute assuming children are lamers, possibly bringing the kids into the same arena or above the runners, until they wake up to the situation they're in.  The GM is god in SR... the possibilities!

The Santa Claus argument could fall into the tradition/religion debate, if you wanted to take it that way.

In SR it could probably be explained with the Magic attribute, since all little kids have some magic in their hearts and lose it as they get older!?

[Ultra Violet]

@gifted children:

There are some rule changes, too.
If you want to play or have in your play a gifted child in some way. You can go different paths.
- Extraordinary Attribute, will raise the Attribute limit for this child from 5 to 6 (for a human), so she in one Attribute as child on the level of an adult, but if she grows up her limit will grow to 7.
- Extra talent, is given to some qualities and isn't capped anyhow. So a girl with the Inspired quality is the born artist, and even many adults will never get at her level. Or a boy with Analytical Mind would be a good programmer despite his age.
But if you choose to give the gifted child Aptitude it gives the character the opportunity to improve this skill up to rating 6, a level were the child will be better than most adult would be. And like Extraordinary Attribute, if the child grows up this skill get another level of awesome to fill out.
- Education Qualities, usually they are bound to the character generation, but not for children. In the case of a child character you can buy that kind of Quality after you started to play, additional to buying it at character generation.

One little thing to skill ratings:
If you look at p. 119 (SR4A), you see that rating 4 takes 4 or more years of experience. This example list should be considered, if you create your child character. Because sometimes the lifetime is to short to get at that level. But the GM decides anyway...

[Kot]

And don't forget that a kid's SIN(if he has one) is as much of a pain in the back as a Criminal SIN.

[Ultra Violet]

I played in SR2 and SR3 a otaku boy. He was 10 years as he started to run in the shadows, but it was a real School of Hard Knocks, because on the Streets it is though but for a 10 year old otaku boy it is more than that. The SIN wasn't the problem at that time every Runner was a SINless one, but try to get into a Bar or Nightclub or even Strip-club, where the Meeting with the J was, as child, that is an Adventure in itself, and if you get in the easy part is done. Now try to convince a Mr. J. that this little fine-boned boy is the right one for the job he offers usually though street veterans.
Another general problem is (and maybe Kot meant that) that being a child does come with many many taboos, even stuff an adult runner can by in a Stuffer Shake, the child has to go to illegal channels, or bribe somebody to buy it for him.
Children are society protected beings, and so every person of the law will raise an eyebrow, if he sees a child on the street after bedtime. So children have in that way an integrated distinctive style.

In SR4 it is a little bit easier to be a child running the shadows, because there are PC-types which look like children, but aren't. Gnomes, Vampires or even Changelings, all can look like children but their SINs will tell the checking officer that they aren't one. And that is a good way to get a false SIN for a child as Runner.
"Okay you look as if you are 8, Little Misses. But your checked out SIN said you are a 23 year old gnome girl, have fun in our Nightclub!"

[Nomad Zophiel]

I used to have a roomate who was 18 and 4'9". Everyone assumed she was 12 or so. Her ID got extra scrutiny but once it got checked, she got whatever. We used to send her to buy cigarettes. 

Net effect, give a die or two for suspicion when a kid with an adult ID is getting the once over. If it passes, the person checking believes the ID instead of his eyes.

[Mystic]

I used to have a roomate who was 18 and 4'9". Everyone assumed she was 12 or so. Her ID got extra scrutiny but once it got checked, she got whatever. We used to send her to buy cigarettes. 

Net effect, give a die or two for suspicion when a kid with an adult ID is getting the once over. If it passes, the person checking believes the ID instead of his eyes.

A concept a player tried to sell to me at character creation was a girl who was of all things a weasel shapeshifter. Her human form was about 4'8 and she looked perpetually 10. Her goal was to create an underworld network/gang to go after all those who abused kids (ie prostitution, modern slavery, etc). As a GM, I nixed it, so she went to the other SR GM in our group (and BF, funny how that works) and sold him on the idea.

Was a bit creepy watching someone who looked 10 gnaw off the fingers of a subject during an interrogation and use the Troll in the group like MasterBlaster from Mad Max (although that was sometimes funny). Thankfully, that game ended because it was becoming all about getting what she wanted. And before you go there, it was not JUST because the player and GM were hooked up, she was good at hijacking stories with her over-the-top antics and forceful personality.

[Kot]

Well, one of the players dominating the whole game is always bad. And if that player is a woman... Well, i'll just quote - "Hell hath no fury..."

[Mystic]

Well, one of the players dominating the whole game is always bad. And if that player is a woman... Well, i'll just quote - "Hell hath no fury..."

Or like Mr Miagi says: Best block, no be there. I took the hint eventually and got out. Problem solved.