NEWS

On Foot Chase Combat

  • 17 Replies
  • 6117 Views

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« on: <11-13-14/0616:55> »
How would you GM it if there was a scene where one character is chasing the other on foot for about a mile?

From a purely RAW standpoint, whomever had the higher AGI would more or less just win, since the other would have to make a lot of consecutive Sprinting tests and inevitably fall to fatigue damage before they caught up.  If the two had the same AGI, opposed Running tests would totally work, but that's an uncommon occurrence.

Looking at the Vehicle rules for chase sequences, I want to do something like that, but it doesn't quite jive.  For one, it makes sense that a vehicle with Speed 4 can still catch up to one with Speed 6, because all vehicles still have a pretty fast top speed, and it's unlikely you're going quite that fast anyways (since you still need to make turns and other things).  For running, each person absolutely can be going all-out, and so differences in "top speed" are a much bigger deal.

I was thinking, maybe I'd have it so each character can make a Running + STR test to essentially add to their "effective AGI" for that turn at a one-to-one ratio, or two-to-one for dwarves and trolls (since they sprint slower in 5th).  I'm not sure how to determine when/if one character loses the other, though.  When they get a certain "effective AGI" apart?  Hmm...
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

SnowDragon

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 155
  • "I gag him and throw him down the stairs!"
« Reply #1 on: <11-13-14/0621:20> »
Why not make it a BOD test? Body is supposed to be the measure of someone's health, as opposed to how nimble they are (AGI) or how strong they are (STR) Which don't really matter much in a marathon.

Lucean

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1159
« Reply #2 on: <11-13-14/0659:24> »
You would have to introduce obstacles like people or trashcans. Then you may call for gymnastics tests to avoid or maybe BOD+STR to push through. Call for REA+INT to avoid sudden interrupts from people/vehicles not perceiving you and stepping into your way.

OssumPawesome

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 19
« Reply #3 on: <11-13-14/1038:20> »
No matter how you handle the test, you'd probably want to keep it as a sustained running test for both parties. The guy being chased needs X hits before the guy chasing gets X hits. It gives the advantage to the one with the higher Running skill which keeps everything with a good amount of realism.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #4 on: <11-13-14/1156:01> »
The only thing I have with those suggestions is that they don't take AGI into account.  Someone's movement speed should matter if they're chasing someone, it's literally how fast you are.  The issue is that there's AGI, STR (which is used in Running), and BOD that are all at least semi-relevant so I don't know how to involve all of those attributes at the same time.  Like, a 2 AGI Troll shouldn't be able to catch up to a 7 AGI Elf every time because the Troll has way higher dice for Running, you know?

Thank you for the suggestions though, for sure.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

SnowDragon

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 155
  • "I gag him and throw him down the stairs!"
« Reply #5 on: <11-13-14/1212:06> »
Theoretrically, you could combine all three stats into a single pool, plus the person's skill in running. It'd be quite the dice pool, but it would be the most complete way of handling it, especially if you want to set up a long chase scene. Someone could be built like a tank and have the endurance to match, and they are likely to be able to keep pace with someone who can sprint like a crazy person over the long run simply because they can just. keep. going.

Actually, I'd like to see a chase scene like that. You should let us know how it pans out!

toad

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 30
« Reply #6 on: <11-13-14/1520:33> »
The rules are way too weak on this, as in non-existant.   :-\ Which is puzzling, since it's a staple of any good action/adventure story/movie.
Bull or dev's, why are there no chase rules? (To be fair, they're not the only game that overlooks this issue.)


We should create a decent house rule here.

My interpretation would be that the RAW represent a simple race on an uninterrupted flat plane. For an actual chase (through a city street, a mall, or across rooftops) I would do something like the vehicle chase rules and Lucean suggested. The RAW speed would help, but they better make their tests to avoid obstacles, leap gaps, shove through crowds, etc.

So for example a fleet of foot Elf, trying to escape a lumbering Troll through a mall. The elf theoretically should be able to get away easily, but there's a crowd, where he needs to make a BOD+STR to push through, or REA+INT to weave/dodge? He may struggle, while the Troll bulldozers through, unimpeded.

The question would be how much do you let that affect their relative speeds?
Glitch and you've fallen or tripped.
0 successes, you're stuck, or maybe 1/4 speed.
2 and you're making way, 1/2 speed?
4 and you're through full speed?

I like the idea of the 4 engagement ranges from vehicle combat, how would those tie in? If the runner gains ground 4 turns in a row, have they escaped?
Where does the running/endurance test come in to play?
« Last Edit: <11-13-14/1523:24> by toad »

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9944
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #7 on: <11-13-14/1556:10> »
Because rules for chasing someone without shooting them would be rather unnecessary in nearly every situation? In most situations you could just use movement rates + Sprinting. There's no need to make rules for every single crazy situation, unless you want a book that's 1500 pages.

Besides, they've been making a mess of vehicle chases how long now? Let's not add foot-chases to that.
« Last Edit: <11-13-14/1604:55> by Michael Chandra »
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

ZeConster

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2557
« Reply #8 on: <11-13-14/1747:16> »
The rules are way too weak on this, as in non-existant.   :-\ Which is puzzling, since it's a staple of any good action/adventure story/movie.
Bull or dev's, why are there no chase rules? (To be fair, they're not the only game that overlooks this issue.)
Have you seen how badly they messed up vehicle Speed and vehicle chases? Trust me, you do not want them near anything with the word "chase" in it.

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #9 on: <11-13-14/1907:01> »
Here's a scenario that involves a foot chase, and how I would handle it.

<Descriptive Portion>
The Courier is running away from a security guard that suspects that she might have stolen some very important data.  The Courier is running through a mall, with the security guard in hot pursuit.  She jumps over tables, throws chairs behind her, and pushes people out of the way in order to make headway and hopefully put up obstacles for the security guard.  The security guard is dodging these obstacles pretty well, but also tries to take a stance to fire his taser at the girl, missing in the process.  The Courier makes it to the front door, but the security guard has already called for backup to lock the door.  She jams against the door's bar, pushing fruitlessly.  Giving up on the front door, she turns and makes a dash for the upper level, hoping to find a way to jump down.  The chase continues....

<Rules Portion>
Player is being chased by NPC.  Both Player and NPC are human.  Player has an Agility of 4, Body of 3, Strength of 3, Gymnastics of 3, and Running of 3.  NPC has an Agility of 3, Body of 3, Strength of 4, Gymnastics of 0, and Running of 1.  NPC realizes that there's no chance he'll actually catch up to an tackle Player, so he spends an action radioing ahead to lock the doors and get backup on the way.  Due to this, the distance between Player and NPC is 5 meters.

Turn 1: Both roll Initiative, and Player gets the higher score.  Player rolls Strength + Running to increase her running speed for a turn.  She gets 2 hits, giving her an additional 4m of movement this turn.  She moves forward 20 meters.

Turn 1: NPC rolls his Strength + Running, getting 3 hits (6m of extra movement).  He moves forward 18 meters.  At the end of this turn, the Courier is ahead by 7 meters.

Turn 2: Both roll Initiative, and Player gets the higher score.  There is a crowd of people, tables, and chairs in front of Player.  Player decides to spend the turn making as much headway as possible, while causing delays for her pursuer.  Player rolls Agility + Gymnastics to do a parkour-style jump over the table, knocking chairs and people out of the way in the process.  She gets 2 hits, enough to cause some chaos behind her.  She moves 16 meters (her normal running rate).

Turn 2: NPC now has to deal with the obstacles, so has to succeed at a Running test, rolling Strength + Running against a threshold of 2 hits (the number of hits Player got on her test).  NPC gets 1 hit, which reduces his movement rate for the turn to Walking instead of Running.  He moves 6 meters forward.  Now Player is ahead by 17 meters.

Turn 3: Initiative again, NPC wins.  NPC takes a stance and lines up a taser shot (Aimed Shot) and fires.  He suffers a modifier to his dice pool for the target running, a modifier for him running, and a modifier for the range.  His dice pool is reduced to 3, and he gets 0 hits.

Turn 3: Player hits the gas, using another Sprint action and getting 3 hits.  She can move 22 meters this turn, more than enough to ensure that NPC can't catch up any time soon.  She's 15 meters from the door, and slams into it at full force.  Instead of getting away though, she's hit the locked door and can't get through.  The purpose of the NPC using his radio starts to sink in.

And so on.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2996
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #10 on: <11-13-14/2207:07> »
I mean, that's probably the best way to do it.  Just that it means a difference in AGI beyond maybe 2 points means there's no way one's catching up to the other.  Which is fine, but I just want to know if that's definitively how it should be.

The scenario I'm imagining is thus (and hopefully no players of mine see this):

An AGI 3 player is chasing the AGI 6 Adept that is their bounty through the CZ.  The adept is dodge-built, and with the distance, bonuses from movement speed (optional rule) and penalty to firing while running, can't reliably just be shot, and is trying to sprint about a mile into the Cermak Crater (it's a radiation adept, and knows the players can't withstand as much radiation as they can).  The amount of debris in the area also gives the adept a lot of places to break LOS with and makes getting a clear shot even harder.

I don't intend for the players to be able to catch them or for it to even seem like a good idea to give chase (it's not).  But should they so decide, I just wanna make sure I know what to roll so they feel like they have a chance (and hey, with luck and Edge it could happen, I wouldn't complain) rather than just saying "you follow your mark until your geiger counter begins to display a significant amount of radiation, and you are forced to let them get away".

Or would doing the latter just be the better thing to do, as GM?
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

8-bit

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #11 on: <11-13-14/2230:45> »
I don't intend for the players to be able to catch them or for it to even seem like a good idea to give chase (it's not).  But should they so decide, I just wanna make sure I know what to roll so they feel like they have a chance (and hey, with luck and Edge it could happen, I wouldn't complain) rather than just saying "you follow your mark until your geiger counter begins to display a significant amount of radiation, and you are forced to let them get away".

Or would doing the latter just be the better thing to do, as GM?

Unless it is actually possible (I know exploding 6's makes anything possible, even if the odds are astronomical, but be realistic) then I would go with the latter. If it is possible that with luck and Edge that they might catch their target? Sure, let them do it. Just realize after a point that the target got too far away and then tell them that line. If it isn't, I wouldn't bother, just tell them that the adept got away. I doubt any player will judge you when a target they're chasing that is faster than them has a 30-50 meter head start.

Namikaze

  • *
  • Freelancer Ltd
  • Prime Runner
  • **
  • Posts: 4068
  • I'm a Ma'fan of Shadowrun!
« Reply #12 on: <11-13-14/2315:39> »
Well if the players know their target, they'll do a lot more than just chase him/her on foot.  If the players do the legwork necessary to learn the powers of this adept, they should ambush the adept in such a way that escape is nearly impossible.  Putting the adept into a closed-off building would work, per the example I gave.  But also using drones and vehicles as necessary to "outrun" the adept would allow the players to nullify the target's advantage.  I mean, legwork is half the game for a reason: forewarned is forearmed.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Acolyte

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #13 on: <11-13-14/2341:49> »
Why not make it a sustained Running + STR [AGIL] vs Running + STR[AGIL] test? Every turn each character can roll AGIL + Gymnastics or STR and add the sucesses to the limit to reflect either Parcour type movement or Me Smash type movement. Start the one being chased with a bonus (maybe 3) depending how far away they start. Go until the total is 10 (chased gets away) or 0 (chased gets caught).

Don't forget fatigue!

   - Shane

toad

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 30
« Reply #14 on: <11-15-14/1118:55> »
I like how Namikaze handled it.

That will likely work the way you're imagining (the adept gets away), but gives a framework for how many rounds the players can remain in pursuit before the adept's out of range. But as has been said, never underestimate the shenanigans players can pull. Crazy Edge roll? Grenades? Magic? Vehicles/drones?