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Teach me about The Adversary.

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firebug

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« Reply #15 on: <12-21-14/1457:25> »
LaVey's religion and beliefs on magic were very influenced by Crowley and real-life hermeticism.  Satanism expresses the gods of the past becoming the "devils of today", literally many pagan figures being portrayed demons and other dark spirits (the most well-known being the change of Pan to Satan, both being goat-like gods of ironically similar values), and the bible actually includes a list of names of them, so mentor spirits of all types fit a Shadowrun character based on the religion.

I actually made a runner who is a black magician with a tweaked Fire-Bringer as her mentor spirit, it representing the kind of cynical "defeat self-deceit" and critical, non-conformist mentality (in the idea of "fire bringer" meaning someone who is bringing inspiration and/or clarity).  Changing it to "Lightbringer" was almost too obvious.
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psycho835

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« Reply #16 on: <12-21-14/2248:41> »
This actually has me kind of pumped for making an Adept with the Adversary as his Mentor spirit. He is discussed briefly in Dragonfall but he just gets the "Devil = evil deceiver" treatment. The source of that info isn't reliable though, which is why I came here.

Devil Wong will be so much fun to play, that cantankerous old bastard.

THAT particular version was explicitly toxic.


Incidentally, I just took a break from Dragonfall, literally a few minutes ago. While at Harrow's cult camp.
Yeah.

Sengir

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« Reply #17 on: <12-31-14/1217:51> »
I actually made a runner who is a black magician with a tweaked Fire-Bringer as her mentor spirit, it representing the kind of cynical "defeat self-deceit" and critical, non-conformist mentality (in the idea of "fire bringer" meaning someone who is bringing inspiration and/or clarity).  Changing it to "Lightbringer" was almost too obvious.
That's not really a tweak, since Fire-Bringer already is a straight take at the motif of the "culture hero" who rebelled against the gods to bring mankind knowledge -- be it fire (Prometheus), fishing (Loki), or the literal forbidden fruit ;)


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(the most well-known being the change of Pan to Satan, both being goat-like gods of ironically similar values)
The goat feet actually are a fairly recent entry to Christian imagery, and the problem with all those "Christianity turned X into Satan" theories is that Abrahamic mythology ascribes a lot of different areas of expertise to him. In SR terms, he would not just be Seductress/Horned Man and Fire-Bringer, but also Trickster, Chaos, Dark King, Adversary, every Toxic mentor...

firebug

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« Reply #18 on: <01-04-15/0345:32> »
Goat feet, horns, both are considered to be symbols of the flesh and "sinful" desires.  Perhaps I shouldn't have said they made Pan into Satan specifically; more that he became demonized and is one of the many (as you said) that are sometimes representing the devil.

And yeah, if Fire Bringer was more literally Prometheus it's not quite a tweak...  I mean, that's where the inspiration was from.  But the mechanics of it seem to suggest something a little bit different.  Maybe not.  *shrugs*  Either way, it's a mentor spirit I look forward to roleplaying.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Lysanderz

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« Reply #19 on: <01-04-15/1233:23> »
For some reason this topic brings me memories of a discussion long long ago where someone mentioned that Daniel Howling Coyote made a hell of a visual representation for The Adversary. One could say he was the Patron Saint of giving authority the middle finger in the Sixth World.

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« Reply #20 on: <01-04-15/1239:34> »
I have a mage in my group who uses Fire Bringer, but is an Odinist.  According to the Edda, Odin hung himself upside down from a yew tree for ...  a LONG time ... to bring mankind the runes.  Since she's a bit of an alchemist dabbler, and all of her alchemy deals with runes, it fit really well.  Fire Bringer can be a lot of things.  Given the variety of interpretations, this seems intentional and awesome.  Almost every culture or religion has someone that can be represented by Fire Bringer, so it makes a wonderful mentor spirit.
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firebug

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« Reply #21 on: <01-04-15/1539:03> »
Almost every culture or religion has someone that can be represented by Fire Bringer, so it makes a wonderful mentor spirit.

That's true.  It's interesting that for Christianity, that figure is considered a villain.  Not many others have a similar station, do they?  Prometheus, I know is considered bad by the gods, but I don't actually know of how he was seen by the Greek clergy and stuff.

So Odin would fit as Fire-Bringer...  I'm interested in hearing the others that would fit the bill from various religions.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #22 on: <01-04-15/2334:57> »
That's true.  It's interesting that for Christianity, that figure is considered a villain.

What's interesting to me is that the concept of a Satan figure only enters into Judaic lore after the Babylonian Captivity.  During that time, the Jewish scholars that were held met up with other scholars, notably those of the Zoroastrian faith.  The Zoroastrians have always had a strong concept of good vs. evil, so the theory is that the Jewish scholars subsequently implemented this concept into their lore.  In fact, in the earliest versions of the Old Testament (and the Torah and Koran) the Satan figure (who has had slight naming variations) was actually working at the behest of God, or at least with his consent.  Look at the story of Job for instance.  One could probably argue the Adversary and Fire-bringer concepts are central to a God figure for any of the Qabbalistic, Christian Theurge, and Zoroastrian tradition.  Those are traditions that typically don't lean toward mentor spirits, but the Adversary and Fire-bringer mentor spirits fit pretty well.

  Not many others have a similar station, do they?  Prometheus, I know is considered bad by the gods, but I don't actually know of how he was seen by the Greek clergy and stuff.

So Odin would fit as Fire-Bringer...  I'm interested in hearing the others that would fit the bill from various religions.

Not a whole lot of faiths have a dedicated villain in their pantheon.  Even Loki and some of his ilk weren't really "bad" per se.  They did bad things, but often for what is later revealed to be good reasons.  Hinduism is chock full of these dichotomies - their gods are both "good" and "evil" in a lot of respects.  This would be similar for the Greeks and most polytheistic religions though.  The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."  Native American beliefs are full of the idea that these spirits represent both the good and bad aspects of the spirit.  Egyptian religion is full of this too.  The same goddess (Anuket) who controlled the Nile would bring fertility and destruction with the rising and falling of the river.

I think you'd have a harder time pinning down a strictly villainous figure in most traditions, actually.  The only ones that I can think of are monotheistic, but even they have a certain bit of duality if you go back far enough.
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psycho835

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« Reply #23 on: <01-05-15/0034:54> »
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D

Namikaze

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« Reply #24 on: <01-05-15/0109:08> »
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D

I'm trying to figure out if you think what I wrote is funny, or if the reason for my writing it is funny.
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psycho835

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« Reply #25 on: <01-05-15/0617:15> »
The closest Greek figure that we have to the traditional Christian view of Satan is Hades, and even he isn't really "evil."
Oh ghost, this NEVER fails to crack me up. ;D

I'm trying to figure out if you think what I wrote is funny, or if the reason for my writing it is funny.

Well, it's just that Hades was pretty much the most decent human (so to speak) being of all olympians and everyone hated/hates him.

Longshot23

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« Reply #26 on: <01-05-15/1213:48> »
For a somewhat different take on Olympianism, try Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" - it'll shake things up for you.

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« Reply #27 on: <01-05-15/2038:15> »
Hades - like Hel - was the jailor and keeper-of-the-dead.  They both were essentially the most reliable and upright and just individual in the entire pantheon, later interpretations notwithstanding.  I had a personal delight seeing Hades portrayed properly in the latest Dresden Files book.

And Odhinn hung from Yggdrasil for seven days.
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« Reply #28 on: <01-05-15/2147:53> »
And Odhinn hung from Yggdrasil for seven days.

Not to start an argument over semantics or anything, but one of the etymologies of Yggdrasil literally translates to "yew pillar."
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« Reply #29 on: <01-05-15/2307:55> »
... not sure what you're getting at.  Yes, Yggdrasil is a yew, and yes, you said he hung from a yew tree, and yes, I specified Yggdrasil.  None of which we've said contradicts each other.  I was specific; you, general.  I was actually meaning to clarify the number of days he hung, since you seemed vague in regards to it ...
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