[Molash]

Good Afternoon everyone.

So I am writing a campaign but I am unsure how the reward system works and how to apply it.  I understand they get the Karma at the end of the run and the same goes for the nuyen, but how is it worked out on how much you give out?

[Namikaze]

Determining the amount of reward is a huge thing for GMs, and it's hard to determine for new GMs especially.  Which is why there are base guidelines in SR5.

I would heartily encourage you to read the section in SR5 called "Run Rewards".  You can find it on page 371.  This will give you some guidelines, but feel free to deviate as you wish.  Nuyen rewards should be determined by this formula:

(3,000 + (Negotiation net hits * 100)) * (modifiers from table on page 372)

Karma rewards are added up based on the table from page 372.

[Molash]

Ok i re-read the section and have a lil better idea of what im looking for so now i can ask a better question.

when setting up the run with Mr. Johnson and the discussion of pay comes into play, how do you figure that out if you dont know how much each person will make until after the run when you know what the highst die roll they faced will be?

do you just give the basic price and give the rest as a bonus at the end or say as extra nuyen they find durring the run? or from selling paticuler jucie bits of items or info they pic up during the run?

[Glyph]

Nuyen rewards are tricky.  I would recommend against using the formula given as a one-size-fits-all solution.  First, you need to be careful to balance out Karma and nuyen so that mundane and awakened characters can both meaningfully improve - if the mage and adept initiate several times, then the decker needs to be able to upgrade his deck, and the street samurai needs to be able to upgrade his augmentations.  The higher cap on skills ameliorates this a bit (the decker and street samurai can improve skills instead of initiating), but only up to a point.

Secondly, character creation is a very open system, one that can result in characters ranging up and down the scale when it comes to experience and ability.  So some runner teams might be making a few grand, while others pull off the big jobs for correspondingly big money.  Look at how powerful the team is, how connected they are as far as contacts go, and whether they plan out their runs or just act like thugs and go in guns blazing.  All of these things should affect the kind of job offers that they get.

[rednblack]

I think we need a sticky in the GM thread about this topic. There was a really nice alternative to the core rule book formula that took into account street cred and notoriety that should probably be included.

[Namikaze]

I would also advise against using the formula in the book as a one-size-fits-all solution.  It's really just a guideline, to paraphrase Captain Barbossa.  As far as how to know the highest opponent's dice pool - you know what enemies your runners are going up against in advance, so just take the highest possible dice pool from the enemies.  Even if your runners don't ever confront that dice pool, it's hardly a big deal to throw them a little extra nuyen.

[rednblack]

I would also advise against using the formula in the book as a one-size-fits-all solution.  It's really just a guideline, to paraphrase Captain Barbossa.  As far as how to know the highest opponent's dice pool - you know what enemies your runners are going up against in advance, so just take the highest possible dice pool from the enemies.  Even if your runners don't ever confront that dice pool, it's hardly a big deal to throw them a little extra nuyen.

The GM maybe knows that, but what if the PC's take an extraordinarily ill-advised approach or trigger a HRT?

[Namikaze]

Well then the PCs get a lot more challenge and no more money.  Lesson learned.

[8-bit]

I would also advise against using the formula in the book as a one-size-fits-all solution.  It's really just a guideline, to paraphrase Captain Barbossa.  As far as how to know the highest opponent's dice pool - you know what enemies your runners are going up against in advance, so just take the highest possible dice pool from the enemies.  Even if your runners don't ever confront that dice pool, it's hardly a big deal to throw them a little extra nuyen.

The GM maybe knows that, but what if the PC's take an extraordinarily ill-advised approach or trigger a HRT?

At that point your runners (if they are smart) should call the Johnson telling him that, and I quote, "There were technical difficulties." I joke with the specific words (although my group did that once), but the concept should be the same. If you are put up against much more threatening opposition and overcome it, and the Johnson didn't prepare you or compensate you for it, you need to get in touch and demand more money for putting up with that drek.

Or what Namikaze said.

[Spooky]

Then they get what they have earned. You as gm determine what the Johnson will pay for the run, and work it out with the runners. If their approach causes extra opposition, then hopefully they learn how to be more subtle next time.

[rednblack]

I agree with all that's said above, but that's not covered I'm the book. I wouldn't incentivize bad decision making but "highest opposing dice roll" certainly can.

ETA: back corrected to bad.

[Namikaze]

I agree with all that's said above, but that's not covered I'm the book. I wouldn't incentivize back decision making but "highest opposing dice roll" certainly can.

I suspect there are some typos in this post, and what you're suggesting is that using the "highest dice pool" rule can incentivize players to do stupid things.  I disagree.  The GM sets the price the runners get.  If the runners are stupid enough to get a HTR team thrown at them (and it's not part of the scripted events) then that's the fault of the runners.  Mr. Johnson can't possibly pay out HTR-level pay on every run just because they might get called out.

Look at the flip side of this: if the GM is expecting the players to run into something really nasty and sets the pay accordingly, but the players manage to wriggle through without having to oppose that nasty thing...  they get more money than the run was "worth."  And of course, this is all based on a guideline that was implemented to make it easier for new GMs to adapt to the game.  After one or two runs with those guidelines, the GM should probably take off the training wheels and make things that they want to make.

For instance, because my games are weekly, I tend to award between 5 and 8 karma per run and somewhere around 10,000¥ per runner per run.  Sometimes it's less money, sometimes it's more.  Money is one resource you can't ever give your players too much of.  Availability, contacts, and information - those are the real gold for runners.  Let's say you have a runner sitting on a cool million nuyen.  That's great - but now you have to spend it.  Which means you need to have contacts that can get their hands on something worth a million nuyen.  Oh - your runner never made any friends while making all that money?  He burned a bunch of bridges?  Damn.  I hope that money was worth it, since you can't use it for anything now. 

The players have to really play as the characters - professional, driven, and (again) professional.  If they can't be professional runners then they're probably going to end up eating a bullet or worse.  The average life expectancy for a professional runner is less than a year.  Anyone that makes it that far has done so (usually) because of skill and professionalism.  There's a few Kanes running around, but the majority of long-living shadowrunners do so because they have learned that nuyen is not as valuable as other resources.

[8-bit]

I agree with all that's said above, but that's not covered I'm the book. I wouldn't incentivize back decision making but "highest opposing dice roll" certainly can.

I suspect there are some typos in this post, and what you're suggesting is that using the "highest dice pool" rule can incentivize players to do stupid things.  I disagree.  The GM sets the price the runners get.  If the runners are stupid enough to get a HTR team thrown at them (and it's not part of the scripted events) then that's the fault of the runners.  Mr. Johnson can't possibly pay out HTR-level pay on every run just because they might get called out.

I'm not saying they should (since I was the one who pointed it out). If they did something stupid, then that's their fault. However, if they were misinformed about security (such as the fact that they have an HTR team on standby), then they have every right to demand more money. And the Johnson is by no means obligated to pay them. Doesn't mean they can't do it, which is entirely professional by the way, if your employer is screwing you over, you have every right to demand compensation.

[rednblack]

Corrected previous post -- I'm on phone as I'm working the night job right now.

@Namikaze, I agree. There are lots of gray areas though. If players go storming the gates when the Johnson recommended an easier way in they should be out any extra scratch. But there are gray areas. What if -- actual play example -- a char makes a risky bid to gather additional intel and that brings down extra security the J wasn't planning on when she proposed the job?

My way of seeing it is that the chars may ask for additional up front cash but no extra on the payout. There could be a number of acceptable ways of playing it of course.

I think you and I are on the same page, but my point is the core book isn't particularly good at parsing out outliers that actually become the norm once foot meets pavement.

ETA: 8-bit also makes a good point. SR5 makes reference to the opposing rolls the team will face when that will not usually equate to what the Johnson knows about when presenting the job.

ETA2: also I think I should add that I don't think there's anything weird with the core book's recommendations. They're a good starting point. It's just that the outliers really are the norm, and inexperienced GMs, such as myself, twallu have to adjust on the fly by our own understanding of the SR world.

[Glyph]

I think that while the PCs might usually get paid what the run is worth, there should be times they get underpaid, overpaid, set up (don't overuse the betraying Johnson trope, though), or have the opportunity to snag something extra if they are on the ball.