[Csjarrat]

Yeah, unless you've got a gnome techno with 8 LOG, 6 skill, codeslinger (HOTF) and an appropriate spec you're probably going to struggle to get epic dice pools before you start adding hot sim, drugs and cyberware into the fray.
Some big helps for technos are "diffusion of firewall" complex form (reduces target's resistance pool) and sprites. Sprites at high levels have decent dicepools and can assist you with teamwork tests, boosting your limit and dicepool. fading is quite high if you register but shouldn't be too much of an issue if not

[firebug]

Keep in mind that technomancers have a much harder time dealing with noise (read: they have no ways before submerging) which hurts their lower dice pools even more.  Playing one in Missions sucks, with how often the CZ comes up.

[Darzil]

As Technomancers are basically magic matrix, maybe they need Foci like other mages . . .

[Darzil]

Keep in mind that technomancers have a much harder time dealing with noise (read: they have no ways before submerging) which hurts their lower dice pools even more.  Playing one in Missions sucks, with how often the CZ comes up.

Well, local noise, anyway. They have Resonance Channel for distance noise, and Transcendent Grid for grid penalties (which Deckers can't reduce).

[firebug]

Resonance Channel for distance isn't that useful.  Unless you've got Focused Concentration (which at this point you'd be using on something else, most likely) you have to be over a kilometer away from the action for the reduction to not just be cancelled out by the sustaining penalty.  Also, you can just hack your way on to a different grid you know.  It's not hard, and if you're going to be hacking anyways, it's not even like it "starts your OS early".  Or it does, but it does so by 1 second or less.  Or do you mean the "-2 for using the Public Grid", which is one thing TMs can avoid explicitly that deckers can't?

Since they made them so much like magicians now, they really do need at least a sustaining focus equivalent, with all the sustained duration CFs.  Unless they are going to remake the questionable echo from 4th in which case every TM will soon be spending most of their time with most of the matrix attributes nearly doubled.

Speaking of which, Darzil, it says this in the description of Complex Forms:  "Each complex form entry has a Target describing what it works on. A complex form with a Device target can also be used to target a persona."  This also in turn backs up the ruling that Persona are not devices.

[Namikaze]

Alright, so let's compare dice pools for a starting decker and a starting TM.

Decker starts with 6 points of Hacking, specialization for +2, and 6 points of Logic.
TM starts with 6 points of Hacking, specialization for +2, and 6 points of Logic.

Why are TMs starting out weaker, according to multiple posts here?  The best a decker can do at creation is to start with a Rating 2 Cerebral Booster, giving them 16 dice pool instead of 14.  On average, that's less than a 1 hit difference.  14 dice create 4.66 hits, 16 dice create 5.33 hits.  So all a decker needs to cap out on average is a rating of 5 in their specific matrix attribute.  And a technomancer at most would need 4.  So I really don't see how a technomancer is "weaker" than a decker - they're almost identical.

A decker has more options with programs and the ability to reconfigure their limits.  A technomancer has more options with complex forms and sprites.  In fact, if a technomancer has a rating 6 crack sprite to help them with the hacking attempt, that sprite will usually get 4 hits.  That increases the technomancer's limit by 1 and gives them 4 extra dice to attempt the hack with as well.  Add to that the ability to diffuse a target's firewall before even attempting the hack, and your opponent has almost no chance of stopping a technomancer from hacking them.

[firebug]

Your sprite example only works if teamwork tests in the Matrix work, and if so, a decker should use buy a R6 Agent and have that assist them with literally every roll it can.  You don't even need to worry about how many tasks it owes.

You should subtract 2 from that dice pool as well if you're using Diffusion of Firewall.  If you want to lower it enough to make a net difference, then you need to lower it by 3, which most likely means at least 5 hits--  And then you resisting 6 Drain.

The thing is that the decker will almost always have those two dice from increased LOG, which do make a difference.  They can likely afford more skill points too (TMs need Attributes, MAG/RES, and then Skills, while deckers go Resources and Skills, with Attributes not needing to be as high) which means more specializations.

If you're assuming this TM has Focused Concentration, then keep in mind that's Karma the decker can use on Codeslinger and other useful qualities.

Then finally the programs which do add quite a bit, and their ability to gain Noise Reduction, the latter of which can come up very often.  Sprites and complex forms could be considered the equivalent to programs, agents, and cyberware.  But then there's still the other drawbacks TMs have...

TM have a disadvantage, okay?  Decking is difficult to begin with, you need every boost you can get.

EDIT:  Also, with the new Restricted Gear quality, couldn't a decker have a full R3 Cerebral Booster?  Again, they are more likely to have the Karma for the quality.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I wish there was a Way of the Burnout Network for Technomancers.

Namikaze
To be fair, hackers need both Intuition and Logic if they are going to be most effective. Technomancers, if they want to have good Firewall and Attack limits, also need Charisma and Willpower, so that's two more attributes than a decker might need. For a Free Action, a decker can rearrange his limits, while a Technomancer is stuck with his mental attributes until he raises one of them. A decker can buy 80 and 250 nuyen programs to do the same.

The biggest advantage for deckers is the Cerebral Booster in my opinion, absolutely. With a 6 Intuition and a 4 (6) Logic, they arguably get the most important stats for a whole host of things at the maximum level attainable. A Technomancer can do the same, but not without cutting into his Resonance attribute.

I don't necessarily think Technomancers are "weaker", per se. They're just a lot more difficult to play like a traditional decker, which is part of the reason I think they could use some love (and hopefully will in Data Trails) so that they don't even have to try to be a "normal" decker and can do their Matrix magic like they deserve.

EDIT:
firebug, agreed with you on all points.  And yes, Restricted Gear allows for Cerebral Booster Rating 3 (even Alphaware, should one desire). It's not cheap, but definitely possible.

[Darzil]

I suspect it'll depend on the context. Diffusion of Firewall looks good, but you're going to need a good roll to get past a decent defence pool (unless you use edge), and you are also going to be using it only against a Device or Persona, not against a Host. I do suspect though that a Technomancer who plays Decker without a Deck isn't playing to it's strengths, but I've not played one. Trying to have all the attributes and skills needed for hacking as well as Charisma, Compiling, Decompiling and Resonance will be spreading things thinly I suspect.

Running the numbers, comparing a Decker with 16 dice, against a Technomancer with 14 (12 for Resonance+Software). Say we're hacking something simple like a Commlink on an average person. So 3 Willpower, 5 Firewall on defence. Decker has Sleaze 6 with program, Technomancer Intuition 5, say. Expectation of success for Decker is 82%. Expectation of success for Technomancer is 73%. Going for 2 marks, these would be 65% and 53%. If Technomancer first used Diffusion of Firewall, at level 5, they'd have a 21% chance of reducing firewall by 1, 20% chance of reducing by 2, 23% chance of reducing by 3, 36% chance of not reducing it, and expect to lose (say Willpower 5 too, hard getting all these high attributes) 2 stun. Average will be 1 reduction (1.3 to be strict), so that's up to 79% chance of success, 60% for 2 marks. So for the cost of 2 stun the Technomancer has nearly caught up.

However, that's routine. If you were having a difficult one off device hack I'd prefer to be Technomancer I think. I'd open up with Diffusion of Firewall with edge, significantly lowering defences for all subsequent actions, whereas edge for the Decker would only affect one action. Of course, in a Host hack, give me a decker (preferably buffed by a Technomancer!)

My gut feeling is compared to other characters, Deckers don't have enough ways to improve their dice pools through advancement, and nor do Technomancers, but I could be wrong. Still, a big part of that is probably Data Trails not yet being out.

Looking through the rules, and considering Aaron's (I think) note on Noise stopping low device items getting wireless bonuses, it seems to me that Noise is designed as a way to situationally reduce augmented/decker ability, and Background Count to reduce Mage/adept ability. With that in mind, it seems to me that if a GM is throwing noise around more than background count they might be unintentionally penalising one character type (more so if not applying Aaron's note).

Edit - Ref Deckers and not needing Willpower I disagree. It's used for resisting Brute Force, Biofeedback, Jacking Out when linklocked, resisting Trace Icon and about half the IC attacks. But certainly agree on Charisma.

[firebug]

Diffusion of Firewall is not that amazing, guys.  Throwing 12 dice against 6 (most common total for low PR enemies) is only gonna get 2 net hits on average, which will not make up for the sustaining penalty.  And that's at Level 4, so you'd need to spend 16 Karma on Focused Concentration (to make it do something) and then soak 5 Drain with your likely 11 dice.

I won't except "use edge!" as any kind of reasoning for something being good or worthwhile; a strategy relying on the use of edge seems impractical.  I'd also add that a TM is pretty likely to have lower Edge as well--  3 if you're a human, or maybe 5 if you want to start so poor you need to spend your Karma (meaning fewer qualities for you!) on enough money to have a SIN.  Meanwhile, every single decker made (with Priority System) will have the option of being a 5 Edge Human with literally no cost.

A lot of the problem with TMs is character generation, honestly.  They just require so many different character resources.

[Darzil]

Diffusion of Firewall is not that amazing, guys.

I know, as I just proved with Maths!

[Namikaze]

Your sprite example only works if teamwork tests in the Matrix work, and if so, a decker should use buy a R6 Agent and have that assist them with literally every roll it can.

We're talking from character generation, right out the gate.  So you could only get a Rating 4 agent.

The thing is that the decker will almost always have those two dice from increased LOG, which do make a difference.  They can likely afford more skill points too (TMs need Attributes, MAG/RES, and then Skills, while deckers go Resources and Skills, with Attributes not needing to be as high) which means more specializations.

Are we really going to build the whole character, and try to see who can make the better dice pool?  The point I was making is that technomancers are not too far off from deckers right out the gate.  We were comparing a single dice pool against another single dice pool, not all the nuances and intricacies of the two characters.

Then finally the programs which do add quite a bit, and their ability to gain Noise Reduction, the latter of which can come up very often.  Sprites and complex forms could be considered the equivalent to programs, agents, and cyberware.  But then there's still the other drawbacks TMs have...

TM have a disadvantage, okay?  Decking is difficult to begin with, you need every boost you can get.

Technomancers are not as good as deckers right out the gate.  But the difference between them isn't nearly as great as people have made it look.

The biggest advantage for deckers is the Cerebral Booster in my opinion, absolutely. With a 6 Intuition and a 4 (6) Logic, they arguably get the most important stats for a whole host of things at the maximum level attainable. A Technomancer can do the same, but not without cutting into his Resonance attribute.

There's nothing stopping a technomancer from picking up a cerebral booster too.  They lose some Resonance, which is only used for compiling/registering sprites and using complex forms.  WIth enough submersions, the cerebral booster has no negative effect at all.

They're just a lot more difficult to play like a traditional decker, which is part of the reason I think they could use some love (and hopefully will in Data Trails) so that they don't even have to try to be a "normal" decker and can do their Matrix magic like they deserve.

Myself being the one person that has presented rules to allow technomancers more versatility and utility, I get what you guys are saying.  But the statement about having a 12 dice pool at character generation is BS.  Both deckers and technomancers are equally likely to have failed this challenge for one reason: rolling 4 hits on 9 dice, 4 times in a row.  It's hard to overcome 4 hits in an opposed test, especially for a new character.  That's why 4 is considered "Very Hard" on the threshold table.