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Namikaze

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« on: <02-06-15/2227:25> »
I made the topic to cover a wide range of linguistic questions, which should hopefully help to gather several questions under one topic.

Specifically I'm wondering about Aztlan and the Pueblo Corporate Council.  In the Sixth World Almanac (4th edition), it lists the languages of Aztlan as Aztlaner Spanish, English, Nahuatl, and a few regional languages.  And the languages of the PCC are English, Spanish, Zuni, and Hopi.

in Run Faster, if one wants to build a PCC runner, you choose between Zuni and Uto-Aztecan.  Azzies are referenced to speak Neo-Nahuatl.

Can someone clear this up for me?  Is Aztlaner Spanish basically just Neo-Nahuatl (new edition, new name)?  Is Uto-Aztecan supposed to blend Spanish and Zuni?  Do Aztlaners actually speak Spanish?
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MijRai

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« Reply #1 on: <02-06-15/2241:15> »
Aztlaner Spanish is just that, Spanish for Aztlan, with modified colloquialisms, vocabulary for the modern day and absorbed dialects.  It's basically Spanish, but with the adjustments of three-quarters of a century that involved magic coming into the world, a revival of bloodthirsty Aztec religion being infused into the language, etc.  It's the primary language of Aztlan.

Neo-Nahuatl is a modified form of the traditional Nahuatl language, also modified to match the modern day.  It's a language that was basically pirated from the traditional speakers (who are dying out as SINless subsistence farmers) by Aztechnology/Aztlan for their management and priesthood/magic users, if I'm remembering correctly.  The funny bit is that most of the top dogs are closer to pure-blood European. 

No clue what Uto-Aztecan is, however. 
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #2 on: <02-06-15/2244:57> »
Hopi is a Uto-Aztecan language. Along with Ute, Yaqui, and Shoshone in the north and central regions where the family reaches. So basically the languages of tribes in the PCC from Boise to Roswell.

Nahuatl is part of the southern Uto-Aztecan family of languages that are spoken from Tenochtitlan to El Salvador.

There are two major Indian language families in the NAN states: Uto-Aztecan and Athabaskan. It would have probably included an option for Athabaskan had the Apaches and Navajos not ended up in the Sioux Nation.

Zuni is listed separate from Uto-Aztecan because Zuni is not part of any language family. It's the North American version of Basque. But the Hopi and Zuni are the two largest tribes in PCC, so it was in the module.

Aztlaner Spanish is Mexican Spanish with some academic alterations imposed in the early 21st century by Aztechnology. For example, it brought back the vosotros tense because the Academy is filled with assholes. There are some very noticeable differences between Spanish dialects by country, and PCC Spanish is not going to be quite the same as Aztlaner Spanish (PCC Spanish isn't even the same in L.A. and Santa Fe).

The funny bit is that most of the top dogs are closer to pure-blood European. 
Just like Mexico and Latin America now.
« Last Edit: <02-06-15/2250:34> by Crimsondude »

Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: <02-06-15/2247:23> »
Aztlaner Spanish is just that, Spanish for Aztlan, with modified colloquialisms, vocabulary for the modern day and absorbed dialects.  It's basically Spanish, but with the adjustments of three-quarters of a century that involved magic coming into the world, a revival of bloodthirsty Aztec religion being infused into the language, etc.  It's the primary language of Aztlan.

Yes, I get what the language actually is.  But the editions seem to have switched primary languages in these two countries with alternates.

Hopi is a Uto-Aztecan language. Along with Ute, Yaqui, and Shoshone in the north and central regions where the family reaches. So basically the languages of tribes in the PCC from Boise to Roswell.

Nahuatl is part of the southern Uto-Aztecan family of languages that are spoken from Tenochtitlan to El Salvador.

There are two major Indian language families in the NAN states: Uto-Aztecan and Athabaskan. It would have probably included an option for Athabaskan had the Apaches and Navajos not ended up in the Sioux Nation.

Zuni isn't part of the Uto-Aztecan family, however, because Zuni is not part of any language family. It's the North American version of Basque. But the Hopi and Zuni are the two largest tribes in PCC.

This is very helpful.  So based on what you're saying, Uto-Aztecan should cover the Hopi portion of the previous edition's language listing for the PCC?
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #4 on: <02-06-15/2251:14> »
This is very helpful.  So based on what you're saying, Uto-Aztecan should cover the Hopi portion of the previous edition's language listing for the PCC?
Yes.

SR1/2 list the following languages as Uto-Aztecan: Aztec, Comanche, Hopi, Paiute, Papago, Pima, Shoshoni, and Ute.
« Last Edit: <02-06-15/2254:28> by Crimsondude »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #5 on: <02-07-15/0351:35> »
That was, I swear, the best and most useful language list ever.  I STILL use it.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #6 on: <02-07-15/0432:51> »
Yeah.

SR5 lists Aztlaner Spanish and Spanish both as common languages, but like I said – That is irrelevant unless you distinguish which kind of Spanish. If you think the English are arrogant about the Queen's English, ask a Spaniard to watch Univision. I've also seen a Puerto Rican told he wasn't Hispanic enough for New Mexico. So maybe I'm just drawn to arrogant assholes. (I can't imagine why).

FWIW, I grew up learning New Mexican Spanish and then took classes in college with Spaniards and lived in Spain. So there actually wasn't much of a problem because Spanish in New Mexico mostly evolved in a vacuum, and there are people in the heart of what's now the PCC that speak late medieval Castellano punctuated with cognates made up for new inventions and things that didn't exist when the conquistadors arrived.


I was watching Chef this afternoon and Cuban Spanish is so annoying to listen to for me. Stop dropping your esses!
« Last Edit: <02-07-15/0438:54> by Crimsondude »

Namikaze

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« Reply #7 on: <02-07-15/1043:05> »
So would it be safe to say that Aztlan's official language is Neo-Nahuatl (which is essentially Aztlaner Spanish)?  Or would you separate Neo-Nahuatl and Aztlaner Spanish as two distinct languages?
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Longshot23

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« Reply #8 on: <02-07-15/1101:22> »
So would it be safe to say that Aztlan's official language is Neo-Nahuatl (which is essentially Aztlaner Spanish)?  Or would you separate Neo-Nahuatl and Aztlaner Spanish as two distinct languages?

IMO, two distinct languages.

MijRai

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« Reply #9 on: <02-07-15/1103:54> »
No, because like I said, Neo-Nahuatl and Aztlaner Spanish are two languages with extremely distinct origins.  One is Spanish with the understandable modifications, while Neo-Nahuatl is Nahuatl with a lot of modifications to work with the modern day.  What's funny though is that with me digging in, I don't see any reference to 'neo'-Nahuatl besides page 9 of Run Faster.

Pages 149-151, Aztlan Sourcebook
The official language of Aztlan is Aztlaner Spanish, a dialect of Spanish virtually identical to the language previously known as Mexican. The Aztlaner dialect has drifted a little further than Mexican from the original Castilian Spanish, virtually eliminating the subjunctive mood. All official activities, from government functions to the conduct of the justice system, take place in Aztlaner Spanish.
English is widely spoken and understood in Aztlan. In the most rural areas, however, only one or two people in a community may speak it fluently. Though the English language is not an official part of the curriculum for state schools, it is taught almost everywhere.
>>>>>[Most Azzies know enough English to get by. Whether they’re willing to use it is another question entirely. It’s this national pride drek, of course. A drekload of Azzies are still slotted off about the economic oppression of the American colonial era, even though it ended more than a century ago.]<<<<<
—Dartmouth (13:54:48/5-5-56)

Aztec
The most common Mesoamerind language spoken within Aztlan is Nahuatl, otherwise known as Aztec-Nahua (Uto- Aztecan linguistic family). Priests of the Aztlan state religion speak Nahuatl when conducting their rituals.
Roughly one million Aztlan citizens can claim predominately Aztec “blood” or descent. Most of these live in the vicinity of Tenochtitlán. They are largely illiterate, and have only minimal ties with the Aztlaner culture.

Page 166, Sixth World Almanac
Languages: Aztlaner Spanish, English, Nahuatl. Regional languages: (Yucatec, Mixtec, Tarascan)
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Namikaze

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« Reply #10 on: <02-07-15/2309:23> »
Sorry MijRai, I must have misunderstood your original post.  The thing is, some Azzies in 5th edition are now speaking Neo-Nahuatl or Nahuatl as primary languages rather than Aztlaner Spanish.

Quote from: Run Faster, page 9
Burly Azzie grunted something in Neo-Nahuatl but did just as expected, heading around the corner and along the walkway at the side of the ship, moving toward TerraFirst!.

Quote from: Shadows In Focus: Sioux Nation, page 33
Those who learn a third language often do so for business or military reasons, with Japanese, Nahuatl, and Salish being the most common.

So I don't know if Nahuatl/Neo-Nahuatl is the same thing or not.  I also don't know if this means Aztlaner Spanish is less prevalent than it was in 4th edition or not.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #11 on: <02-08-15/0121:06> »
I think Aztlaner Spanish was a holding place language until Aztechnology became pervasive enough with its Neo-Aztec culture to supplant Spanish with their own language. Because once you control language, you control thought. And the Azzies seemed to be pushing Neo-Nauhatl hard over the years.

So, yes. It must have overtaken Spanish in Aztlan. But, no, I wouldn't say that Neo-Nahuatl and Nahuatl are the same. It's like the difference between Castellano Spanish vs. Mexican Spanish, but also with the caveat that Neo-Nahuatl is the form of the language that the Azzies took and then refined academically to suit their own ends. It's the Aztlaner Spanish version of Nahuatl.

I also think that it was a problem distinguishing the two forms of Nahuatl before, but that Run Faster is correct in adding Neo- to the predominant Azzie form. After all, the original version is spoken by actual Mesoamericans, and Mesoamericans are lower than shit to the Azzies.
« Last Edit: <02-08-15/0125:24> by Crimsondude »

Ursus Maior

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« Reply #12 on: <02-08-15/1759:54> »
No clue what Uto-Aztecan is, however.
It's a largeer language family with its own Wikipedia entry:

Its languages are spoken by Pima, Shoshone, Comanche and Hopi, but Nahuatl is alos a part of it. I guess in SR5 it simply means "Hopi and the rest in the PCC/Ute lands". Note that Zuni is a diffrent and completely isolated language. It has no known relatives, as far as I know.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #13 on: <02-08-15/1954:10> »
*sniff*  Zuni, that poor little orphan.  Nowhere to go on Christmas, doesn't know when its birthday is ... *sniff*  Such a sad, sad tale ...
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #14 on: <02-09-15/0157:48> »
*sniff*  Zuni, that poor little orphan.  Nowhere to go on Christmas, doesn't know when its birthday is ... *sniff*  Such a sad, sad tale ...

Fucking Therans, man.

 

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