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Summoning a mantid queen and shadow spirits

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Senko

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« on: <03-21-15/0734:04> »
Let me open by saying I'm not proposing this be allowed its just I've been reading the section in street grimoire on dark magic and these scary thoughts popped into my head.

It says Mantids never produce queen's or mothers and only rarely a Nymph but Nymphs are juvenile queens which got me thinking. What if the reason no one can someone a mantid queen isn't because they don't exist but because the magical levels aren't yet high enough to sustain such a creature just like they had to rise high enough for changelings? What do you think of the concept that somewhere out there are mantid queen's just waiting till magic levels rise high enough for their brood to summon them?

As for dark spirits yes the ones PC's will encounter are free spirits running around but where did they come from initially? Imagine if you will a shadow spirit summoner strolling around the world quietly summoning shadow spirit, after shadow spirit and just letting them loose to cause chaos and destruction for their own hidden purposes.
« Last Edit: <03-21-15/0736:25> by Senko »

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #1 on: <03-21-15/1037:30> »
Mantids don't have queens because they don't exist. That is what sets them apart from other insects, they are here for space and reproduction, but they don't run wild with it like queens do.

And shadow spirits are like minor horrors. They are able to slip across because the magic is high enough, not because they are summoned. They don't need a metahuman like other spirits do.

Both of these spirit types break the rules of magic as magicians know it. They are supposed to. That is what keeps the 6th world mysterious, and keeps magicians from getting too cocky thinking they have it all figured out. Let them be different.

Senko

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« Reply #2 on: <03-21-15/1810:58> »
The problem with that is mantids do have nymphs which are juvenile/young queens so at some point they'd have to grow up.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #3 on: <03-21-15/1822:24> »
Not exactly. Going from nymph to queen isn't a matter of age, we're talking about spirits time doesn't mean much, if anything, to them. IIRC, with actual insects nymphs have to be fed lots of royal jelly to evolve into a queen, most will live and die as a nymph.

Senko

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« Reply #4 on: <03-21-15/1841:38> »
So where there mantid queens once and they died out because they didn't feed enough Nymph's royal jelly? Fact remains a nymph is a juvenile queen however they get there.

Sithlis

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« Reply #5 on: <03-21-15/1846:31> »
I'd say that while Manti queens do exist the mana level instantly high enough like ShadowcatX was saying about shadows.  After you are right the Nymphs have to come from somewhere.

adzling

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« Reply #6 on: <03-21-15/1852:15> »
the term nymph does not mean immature queen.

google it.

mantis insects do not have colonies or queens and neither do the spirits.

Senko

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« Reply #7 on: <03-21-15/1917:59> »
I don't need to google it I'm going by the first sentence in Street Grimoire from the section on Nymph's . . .

Nymph spirits are juvenile queens or mothers and resemble immature (smaller and underdeveloped) versions of their parent.

In other words the book definition of a Nymph in this system is that they're juvenile queens and somewhere out there is a parent.

Reaver

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« Reply #8 on: <03-21-15/1935:39> »
And this why less and less people respond to you Senko.


And for the record:

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adzling

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« Reply #9 on: <03-21-15/2001:06> »
"...or mother.." is the part that is relevant to mantid spirits.

Mantid nymphs do not turn into queens and do not have colonies either as spirits or insects.

Senko

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« Reply #10 on: <03-21-15/2021:45> »
@Reaver
Because I go by the book in trying to understand when and where to houserule things rather than an understanding of how things should be built up over several versions or because I'm only willing to adjust my attempts to house rule the system if people can actually supply concrete examples of how my changes would affect things badly (although from what I've seen no one actually likes house ruling this sytem at all or if they do they don't post on here)?

Serious question here I am bad at interacting with people and if I know why I can try and stop doing it.

@General (On Topic)
For the record if I do google Nymph I get the traditional description (water spirit), if I google nymph/shadowrun I get that its an immature queen or mother.

In the section on mantid spirits it does say

Mantid spirits never have a Queen or Mother and only rarely produce a nymph. In the rare cases that this happens, the other mantid spirits treat the nymph with a high amount of respect and deference, as if she were a sort of tribal elder.


Which can be read as either they don't exist or that they can't be summoned. However if you take it the second way in that the magical levels of earth aren't high enough to summon them it does mean they do exist somewhere, a conclusion backed up by the fact that a nymph is defined as an immature queen/mother. If you don't want a mantid queen you need a mantid mother either way terms aside its the same thing a more powerful mantid spirit than the nymph.

So please explain to me where I'm going wrong here? Street grimoire STATES that a nymph is an immature queen/mother spirit, a queen/mother spirit as far as I can see is the same thing and google supports this conclusion.
« Last Edit: <03-21-15/2029:51> by Senko »

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #11 on: <03-21-15/2024:44> »
Ummm... dude you're answering your own question.
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Senko

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« Reply #12 on: <03-21-15/2026:39> »
Actually my question was what people thought of the concept that there was a more powerful mantid spiriit out there in a "That's a worrying thought" or "who cares its just another bug hunt" type way. As  I said in my first post I'm not proposing it be allowed or used or even defined I'm just interested in what people think about the concept.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #13 on: <03-21-15/2131:48> »
The mantis does not make royal jelly at all. As such they do not have queens like ants or bees. Insect queens summon insects from their realm to ours and breed new ones, for the breeds that have them they are the only ones who can. Mantis spirits reproduce sexually, which gets maybe a sentence in burning bright. As to where do mantis spirits originally come from? The same place other insect spirits do.

As to the idea of one, put bluntly I think it a poor idea. The insect spirits fairly closely resemble the insects upon which they are based. The praying mantis does not have queens.

And while I cannot speak for Reaver, I think he was saying the reason fewer people respond to you is because you ask for opinions and then fight with them when their opinions are ones you don't want to hear. At least that is the implication I took from the comment.

Senko

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« Reply #14 on: <03-21-15/2204:34> »
Really I considred it debate I present my side, they present theirs and we work to a conclusion but ok.

I wouldn't have thought cockroaches had a queen either to be honest.
« Last Edit: <03-22-15/0011:25> by Senko »

 

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