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Reagents, Force, and Drain

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prionic6

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« Reply #30 on: <03-24-15/1654:04> »
You don't spam them for forever; that's unfeasible and unlikely to be productive in the end.

Not with that attitude ;) I'm almost tempted to make a psychotic troll mage with a pain editor and a serious stim patch addiction. Sounds fun to me!

Reaver

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« Reply #31 on: <03-24-15/1758:16> »
You don't spam them for forever; that's unfeasible and unlikely to be productive in the end.

Not with that attitude ;) I'm almost tempted to make a psychotic troll mage with a pain editor and a serious stim patch addiction. Sounds fun to me!

The big Problem with Stim patches is the (rating +1) UNRESISTED stun damage you take  when they wear off. Slap too many on in a short period of time and you could liquefy your organs fast! (3 rating 6 stim patches in an hour = 21 UNRESISTED boxes of damage at the end of that hour!)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

SmilinIrish

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« Reply #32 on: <03-25-15/0036:00> »
It removes its rating in damage.  Then at the end of the hour, you get the damage back +1.
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Lucean

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« Reply #33 on: <03-25-15/0220:43> »
So you think that investing about 13 karma to directly gain +6 drain dice without further investments is in any way balanced?
Tone down the hyperbole, please. As initiation does in no way prevent you from "ever increasing skills or attributes etc."

Centering gets you +1 drain easier than increasing a drain attribute, but it's also a long term investment that can grow by itself.

What is wrong with planning the development of a character? It doesn't all end at chargen. In fact, because of the limits of character generation it is good advice to think about further investments early. In a thread with archetypical characters for SR4 Umaro gave clear advice for what to aim first during gameplay. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Top Dog

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« Reply #34 on: <03-25-15/0558:16> »
Raising initiation grade is relatively easy indeed, and probably the first thing you should invest in as a mage (you can probably do the first one after your first run). And while Centering isn't too useful as your first, getting it at 2 or 3 certainly adds a lot. Add a focus and it's not hard to hit 18 drain dice fairly early in your carreer, which helps a lot.

Define easy.  If you mean you can raise it at the expense of ever increasing your Skills or Attributes or Binding Foci, then sure, I guess its easy.

And how are you getting it after 1 run?  Maybe if you've already planned out your Arcana skill & then saved 7 Karma at Chargen & then also get 6+ Karma for your 1st run.  That takes some pretty dedicated set up if you ask me.

Investing 30+ Karma to get +2 Dice dice for Drain & Counterspelling is a bit much IMHO.
And all it really promotes is to put off those "by grade" powers till later which then promotes Quickening first.

We all say that Quickening is overpowered and I don't disagree but when the other options have also been gimped badly then it just promotes making the non-gimp choice.

Making that go from 2 dice to 4 dice for the 30 Karma actually makes that choice somewhat debatable.
Or as someone else said, remove Grade from the equation & use a different stat, like adding Magic to Drain dice.  That gives you a bigger boost at the start & will also push you to upgrade your base Magic stat as well.
Getting initiation grades is a tradeoff, yes, but there's a reason people tend to do it - it's worth it. And it's not like it cuts you off from other methods of advancement, it just happens to be one that gives a lot of bang for your buck (so do foci though).

31 karma  - that's including a rank of Arcana, otherwise I don't see how you're getting 30+ - gives you +2 to drain and counterspell, yes (if you go that route). Is that worth it? Getting counterspell up 2 ranks will cost you 30 karma by itself otherwise. Granted, Shielding doesn't give you bonus dice on dispelling active spells, but counterspelling pool is the main benefit anyway. Drain Pool is a very important stat, and any other way you might have to raise it up will set you back much, much more then 30 karma (granted, also giving secondary benefits). The 31 karma for 2 initiations gives both, plus the general benefits of initiation.

And that's if you stop at 2. Initiation is the gift that keeps on giving - if you initiate a third time, you not only get an entirely new metamagic, but also a free +1 on your drain pool and counterspelling pool. It also opens up Metamagic Foci.

It's expensive, but everything that's worth it is. And centering has it's own drawbacks (it takes a free action for one - so you can't declare counterspelling at the same time). Arguably, getting Shielding of Centering first is not an optimal choice and you're better off with a flat one first. But that's not because it's not a powerful choice by itself - it's because the flat-rate ones (or the ones with a high baseline, like Masking) are arguably too powerful at grade 1.

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #35 on: <03-25-15/0932:46> »
Define easy.  If you mean you can raise it at the expense of ever increasing your Skills or Attributes or Binding Foci, then sure, I guess its easy.

And how are you getting it after 1 run?  Maybe if you've already planned out your Arcana skill & then saved 7 Karma at Chargen & then also get 6+ Karma for your 1st run.  That takes some pretty dedicated set up if you ask me.

I can not tell you how many times I have seen this at conventions, I swear I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of mages that have increased their spellcasting skill by a point before they initiate.  (Personally, my mage earned over 100 karma before my first initiation, over two hundred now and finally thinking about my second)  And honestly, initiating to grade 1 takes less karma than raising a skill from 6 to 7, probably takes less time too.

I can't really blame them though, the amount of karma you get to keep at character creation is perfect for your typical 6 karma run; and far too often these days, there is no beginners series of modules being run at the conventions which forces people to optimize their characters to keep up with the more experienced characters.
A wise man once said that with increased intelligence comes the increased capacity to feel pain.
Therefore, if ignorance is bliss, enlightenment must be pure hell.

Lucean

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« Reply #36 on: <03-25-15/0948:18> »
Well, to be fair, initiation can bring important benefits to a character and even may be required for some concepts. So because initiation is not allowed during chargen you obviously try to get it as fast as possible afterwards.

Senko

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« Reply #37 on: <03-25-15/1344:35> »
So you think that investing about 13 karma to directly gain +6 drain dice without further investments is in any way balanced?
Tone down the hyperbole, please. As initiation does in no way prevent you from "ever increasing skills or attributes etc."

Centering gets you +1 drain easier than increasing a drain attribute, but it's also a long term investment that can grow by itself.

What is wrong with planning the development of a character? It doesn't all end at chargen. In fact, because of the limits of character generation it is good advice to think about further investments early. In a thread with archetypical characters for SR4 Umaro gave clear advice for what to aim first during gameplay. It certainly doesn't hurt.

Never said it was balanced just that it was dissapointing not to be able to do it and the flip side is that increasing your magic rating to 7, 8, more is going to be more expensive than initiating a second/third time..

BetaCAV

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« Reply #38 on: <03-25-15/1930:02> »
Stim Patches are good, until you get addicted (c.f. "Why Johnny can't blink"). They're not listed in the chart on p. 414, but an Addiction Rating of 3 seems appropriate, and a Threshold of 1 (or 2, depending on how hard the GM wants to put their foot down). It's a much stronger dose than Longhaul, with a shorter duration effect, after all.
Some enterprising streetdoc might start adding Longhaul to his/her own brand of stim patches, too... because "if you can peel 'em and stick 'em, you haven't had too much, yet", to say nothing of those who might tamper with "legit" slap-patches.

Senko

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« Reply #39 on: <03-25-15/2226:46> »
Can't sleep or I'll take slap 2450 unresisted stun, can't sleep or I'll take SLAP 2451 unresisted stun.

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #40 on: <03-26-15/0012:38> »
^^ And not long later Character falls over from lack of sleep and dies (either from lack of sleep or stun damage, you pick).
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Senko

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« Reply #41 on: <03-26-15/0510:01> »
I prefer option 3 they go mad and turn into a Jason Vorhee's/Michael Myers serial killer from the lack of sleep. ;D

prionic6

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« Reply #42 on: <03-26-15/0536:07> »
BetaCAV, on p. 451 the section about stim patches says: "Frequent use of stimulant patches may require Addiction Tests. Treat it as Addiction Rating 2, Addiction Threshold 1."

SpellBinder

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« Reply #43 on: <03-26-15/1707:06> »
I prefer option 3 they go mad and turn into a Jason Vorhee's/Michael Myers serial killer from the lack of sleep. ;D
I think Edward Norton of Fight Club would be much more interesting in the way of issues from a lack of sleep.

Xenon

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« Reply #44 on: <03-27-15/1359:50> »
Can't sleep or I'll take slap 2450 unresisted stun, can't sleep or I'll take SLAP 2451 unresisted stun.
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