[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Yeah... an Rating 6 Agent in a Virtual Machine with an Attack Dongle will be a better secondary hacker than you as a PC ever will. Personally I think Sleaze would get more bang for the buck cause he could Run Silent, Hack on the Fly, Format Device, & Reboot System. Make take him a while to accomplish it but he is rolling 12 dice each time only limited by you Sleaze Dongle Rating (3-4 would cover all but the best rolls.) VR so 12+3d6 for Initiative should get it accomplished in 2 or 3 combat turns. It's just so Skill Intensive to invest in anyway that is worthwhile to do so it'll really take away from your main character. Shadowrun rewards Specialists not multiclass characters.

[Top Dog]

My Logic 10 hermetic might take issue with your Rating 6 Agent statement...

I have a problem with Virtual Machine. Well, 2:

1) Can you run programs on a commlink with Virtual Machine? You can run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier, but then it's the Program Carrier that runs the program. But Commlinks can't normally run programs - at all - regardless of their program capacity.
I mean if you can, great, I know what I'll be buying for my commlink. But I don't think you can. (Wait, is there a Data Trails errata yet?).

2) Even if Virtual Machine works, you can't run Agents on a commlink. You can only run Agents on Decks. This is even stricter than point 1; other devices that can run cyberprograms (that is, RCC's) can't run agents either. Agents are strictly a Deck thing.

[Novocrane]

There's a commlink that comes bundled with an agent already, so it's not exactly accurate to say only cyberdecks can run them. Most commlinks don't have the necessary whatever to run them. VM does.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Top Dog
Only the strictest reading of RAW makes Agents a cyberdeck only thing. I would argue that Agent = Cyberprogram at the very base level, even if it is semi-autonomous, and since an RCC can run cyberprograms that's really all there is to it.

As for virtual machine; the express purpose of this program is to add 2 program slots. If you can run Virtual Machine in a program carrier (you can) then you can run two programs in the virtual environment.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

My Logic 10 hermetic might take issue with your Rating 6 Agent statement...

I have a problem with Virtual Machine. Well, 2:

1) Can you run programs on a commlink with Virtual Machine? You can run Virtual Machine on a Program Carrier, but then it's the Program Carrier that runs the program. But Commlinks can't normally run programs - at all - regardless of their program capacity.
I mean if you can, great, I know what I'll be buying for my commlink. But I don't think you can. (Wait, is there a Data Trails errata yet?).

2) Even if Virtual Machine works, you can't run Agents on a commlink. You can only run Agents on Decks. This is even stricter than point 1; other devices that can run cyberprograms (that is, RCC's) can't run agents either. Agents are strictly a Deck thing.

You can have the Virtual Machine Program put into a Program Module. You can install a Program Module into any device including a Commlink. You can run an Agent & 1 other Program on a Virtual Machine Program. So therefore you can run an Agent on a Commlink... That's RAW!!!!!!!!!!!! You could do it with a toaster it just would be very bad at its job.

If you're Hermantic has such a massive amount of Karma to blow to not only get Logic 10 but get Skill Levels of 6 in Computer, Hacking, & Cybercombat..... only 2 options possible. Either he is the most confused & crappy mage around or he has so much Karma to blow he has become Godlike in Power & has transcended the bounds of the game!!! Which apparently is a thing, another poster said that is what his players are. So maybe yours is similar in that instead of being retired like every other person who plays RPGs does, you are playing a functional god as a PC. If so.... same question I had for the other guy, WHY???

[Top Dog]

There was a whole big discussion on running Agents on RCC's a while back; I'm not going to repeat all the points there so I'll refer to there: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18599.60
Ironically I was initially on the side that it should be possible there, but I was persuaded otherwise.
(my assumption being that if they can't run on an RCC's slots they can't run on Commlinks either).

The problem with Virtual Machine is that it increases Program Capacity of the host device, and that's all it does (well, besides the extra incoming damage). It doesn't actually run the programs itself, it just means you can run more. Now, if the only reason that commlinks can't run programs is because they have no Program Capacity, then yes, Virtual Machine would work.
That, then, is the question. Can commlinks run cyberprograms if they get Program Capacity? My first instint would be no. However, when I actually tried to find sources, all I can find is

but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools.

Which would imply that, as is your point, the problem with running cyberprograms is only one of Program Capacity, and once you get it from Virtual Machine, you can run programs on that.

So what I'm going to do is ask my GM for a counterargument. If he has none, I can run VM on my commlink (yay!); if he does I'll post it here.


A wild post appears! The VM part is already answered above, but...

If you're Hermantic has such a massive amount of Karma to blow to not only get Logic 10 but get Skill Levels of 6 in Computer, Hacking, & Cybercombat..... only 2 options possible. Either he is the most confused & crappy mage around or he has so much Karma to blow he has become Godlike in Power & has transcended the bounds of the game!!! Which apparently is a thing, another poster said that is what his players are. So maybe yours is similar in that instead of being retired like every other person who plays RPGs does, you are playing a functional god as a PC. If so.... same question I had for the other guy, WHY???

Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives Logic 10. I had high Computer for roleplay reasons already, but that's not the point. Point is, to be better then a R6 Agent, you only need 2 computer/hacking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.

[Novocrane]

It's interesting to consider the parallels here to the Resonance [Program] discussions after core release.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives cking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.

So you can do 2/3 of the actions better (going to take all the Matrix skills at 2 to encompass them all) but not Sleaze. So you can fight, I'm not a 100% but it seems like a mage fighting in Matrix Combat isn't the best use of your skill set. Also doesn't actually compare to my Agent at all, that I described since he does the other 1/3 of things better and another 1/3 as well... non combat actions. He can sleaze Marks on his own initiative to help the Decker get better score in combat but he does all kinds of grunt Legwork quite well, relieving the Decker to do the important stuff. Also gets me onto grids, continously scanning the Matrix surrounding me (unless you also got an Int of 10 too to keep up) on his Initiative not wasting mine laying in an unconscious slump to be in VR like him. Lots of utility not a lot of combat.... though swapping the Sleaze Dongle for a decent Attack Dongle would let him be a decent attack dog for the Decker as well. All of which is on is own VR Initiative and exactly zero of mine!!! So I can do whatever I'm supposed to be doing while I just sic my dog to help.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

It's interesting to consider the parallels here to the Resonance [Program] discussions after core release.

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

[Herr Brackhaus]

If all player characters on a team each had a decent commlink with a Program Module with Virtual Machine, a Rating 3-4 Agent, and the Browse program, matrix legwork would be a lot easier for everyone

[Top Dog]

Increased Logic is a good thing for a hermetic mage to have and not *that* hard to get; that gives cking/cybercombat. That is not that expensive to get. Getting all that to 6, yes, that would be excessive, but I'm not competing against a R8 agent.

So you can do 2/3 of the actions better (going to take all the Matrix skills at 2 to encompass them all) but not Sleaze. So you can fight, I'm not a 100% but it seems like a mage fighting in Matrix Combat isn't the best use of your skill set. Also doesn't actually compare to my Agent at all, that I described since he does the other 1/3 of things better and another 1/3 as well... non combat actions. He can sleaze Marks on his own initiative to help the Decker get better score in combat but he does all kinds of grunt Legwork quite well, relieving the Decker to do the important stuff. Also gets me onto grids, continously scanning the Matrix surrounding me (unless you also got an Int of 10 too to keep up) on his Initiative not wasting mine laying in an unconscious slump to be in VR like him. Lots of utility not a lot of combat.... though swapping the Sleaze Dongle for a decent Attack Dongle would let him be a decent attack dog for the Decker as well. All of which is on is own VR Initiative and exactly zero of mine!!! So I can do whatever I'm supposed to be doing while I just sic my dog to help.

Well no, fighting in the Matrix isn't going to be optimal. In combat, I'm probably too busy slinging spells to actually help in cybercombat. In that respect, an Agent would be more useful - it's an extra set of actions.

He wouldn't be better at it though, and that was what I was referring to. If for some reason I'm not needed for the spellslinging, having my mage around would be about as good as having an agent (without costing a program slot). Remember too, we were talking an Agent running on a Commlink - he'll have the same Matrix stats as I can have.

You're right about Perception (and also Search) btw, I can't compete on intuition.

I should note I don't actually *have* Cybercombat, and only have Hacking on 1 - because, as it turns out, Hacking 2 isn't worth it since we háve a good decker for that stuff - me being able to assist is nice, but it's almost never worth doing it on my own. Neither is Cybercombat since I don't have an attack dongle anyway. My point was that there are concepts that can prove your

an Rating 6 Agent in a Virtual Machine with an Attack Dongle will be a better secondary hacker than you as a PC ever will.

wrong. It doesn't have to cost that much to be a secondary "decker"; not much more than, say, secondary street sam. Although secondary street sam is probably more useful.

[Novocrane]

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.

[JackVII]

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.

Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.

Makes sense... that's a very cheesy boost to a ccharacters main role. Also TMs have no "onboard memory" to make a Virtual Machine out of, it's all magic in their minds. Putting it in a commlink is no where near on the same level since it's not going to be used by any decker in existence

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.

Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?

TMS can't run Cyberprograms at all... they have no memory capacity to do so. They can get an Echo that allows their special matrix magic to emulate a Program with their mind. But they don't interact with the Matrix in any way that would let them be running and infinite amount of Programs.... they can't even run 1!!!

[Top Dog]

What was the general concensus to Techomancers taking 1 unresisted Stun Damage for running a Virtual Machine as an Echo???

Almost everyone I've spoken to on the subject was intensely against it being a thing.

Wait... I'm sorry, this is totally OT, but why would a TM take Virtual Machine? As far as I understand, they don't have a limit to the number of programs they can have going at once. Am I missing something?

A TM has a limit - namely, 0, as a TM can't run programs (except as Echo's, in which case they're fixed).

The idea with taking Virtual Machine is that the Technomancer gets 2 program slots to fill, as they wish and dynamically, with regular programs. (As Novocrane said, most people agree they can't do that).

It's related to this discussion since here, too, we have something that can't normally run programs, but now has an option to get one, fixed program to fun. The difference being that Commlinks are actual hardware that can run software, unlike Technomancers.