[PauloAM]

Hello guys,

In the last stage of the Life Modules creation method, it says I can get new qualities and cancel negative ones with my karma. My doubts are:

a) To buy a positive one, do I spend double the karma price?
b) To cancel a negative one, do I spend double the quality value?
c) If I get a new negative quality, do I earn double the karma?

Thanks guys!

[Kiirnodel]

In the Core Rulebook, it doesn't mention doubling the cost of qualities until it starts talking about character advancement. Therefore, it seems very likely that as long as you are still in "creation mode" Qualities are purchased/removed/bought off using the normal, un-doubled, values.

Otherwise, you would be using the full advancement rules and taking new negative qualities wouldn't earn any karma, while buying off/up qualities would cost double. So, to directly answer the question:

a) No, pay normal karma value price
b) No, pay normal karma value price
c) No, earn normal karma value price

[PauloAM]

Thanks a lot!

But then, the Life Modules method actually creates stronger characters than the conventional one, am I right?

[UnLimiTeD]

Within a very limited framework, yes.
LMs are better than Karma, unless you want choices it just doesn't offer, like non-North American or a full corporate citizen.
Also, some groups insist on actually using that background, which makes the characters horribly cliché as the only way to get a decent starting character with it is to stack a specific stat or skill group.
Priority is mostly better, but Life Modules allow you niche benefits like 7 in a skillgroup or Infection + Surge + Positive Qualities.

[Glyph]

Life Modules characters can work out to more overall points than Point Build, but they are not usually stronger than them, because they have a lot of skills outside of their specialty (for example, if you start out from Seattle, are a Corporate Drone, then go to High School, then go to State University, you have the computer skill at rating: 6.  Does your character really need that if he is, say, a street samurai or face?).  It's a fun system to mess around with, and it tends to create characters with lots of skills, but they also tend to be weaker than what their points would add up to.

[Senko]

Yep unless you houserule more karma to get a decent character you have to choose modules based on their benefit rather than their flavour and even then you'll probably wind up weaker than a priority one e.g sorcery/conjuring 6 but only 5 in willpower and charisma to offset drain. On the other hand I personally prefer it but you'd need all the characters using it and the game to account for their weaker start point, or be houseruled to give you more karma to spend.

[DARKBLADEZD73]

Hey Chummers,
                             I am not trying to get off topic ,but can someone explain the way the qualities in the life modules work? I mean, Can you exceed the 25 positive/negative total? Also, if you have 25 positive and 7 negative, Do you have to even the negative with the positive?
   I have been over the section in the Core dozens of times and it is kind of clear about it, at least to me. It say's on pg. 71 "that at character creation a character can only possess at most 25 positive and 25 negative."
  My whole group including the Game Master thinks this does not apply to the life modules, I do? What does the RAW say? Thoughts? Not trying to start any arguments either. Just really need help. Figuring out what is correct. Thanks.

[PauloAM]

For what I know, yes you can have more than 25 on both. But in the end phase of Life Modules it says you can't get additional negatives if you're above the cap, in order to get other negatives, you should spend leftover karma to cancel out some of them, enough to bring you under the cap.

Hope I helped 

[Senko]

As pauloam said you can at the end of module selection have more than 25 of each but when spending extra karma you can only buy up to the usual 25 negative points and may need to buy some off if your above that, positive ones have no limit to my knowledge. I think it's because negative ones give you more karma to buy things but positive ones are coming out of your 775 karma cap and thus reduces what else you can buy.

[Glyph]

It may be an overly simplistic take on the rules, but I read them as, you can start out over the limit on qualities purely from life modules, but as soon as you start buying additional ones you have to abide by the caps.

In other words, if you have 41 points of negative qualities from life modules and buy off some of them, you can only replace them with negative qualities that go under the limit.  Buy off one of them and still have 36 points of negative qualities, you can't get any new ones.  Buy off three of them and get your negative qualities down to 21, then you can take up to 4 points of new negative qualities.  Similarly, if life modules give you 18 points of positive qualities, you can only get up to 7 more points of them.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

I second this ^^^^^

[Senko]

Its one of those GM ruling things I think, the text in the rules themselves specifically calls out negative ones as having a cap but doesn't mention positive either way. From page 84 in the finishing off karma section . . .

If you received the same quality twice in the process and it cannot advance to a higher tier, select another quality of the same Karma cost. You may also buy off negative qualities you may have obtained in the process with your extra Karma, and you may pick new positive and negative qualities—but only if you are under the maximum amount of negative qualities (25 Karma total) after selecting all of your Life Modules. If you buy off negative qualities with Karma to put you under the limit, you can then acquire more negative qualities.

So it very explicity states you can only get negative qualities if your under the cap but doesn't mention positive ones except for saying you can pick them. Now normally if a rule isn't contradicted in a suppliment then it remains intact but if so why call out negative qualtiies as still adhering to it but not positive ones? It's a waste of word count unless something has changed from the core rules and since negative qualtiies function exactly the same it would have to be positive ones that are different.There are other things in this character creation method that are different to normal rules e.g. a max of 7 in a skill rather than 6 and as I said there can be very solid reasons for why positive qualties have no limit.

In addition to the one I mentioned above about them coming out of your karma cap there's also the fact of what happens if you get something from a module you don't particularly want? For example I want positive qualities totalling say 22 karma for my character but in picking life modules I've wound up with 11 positive points worth of qualtiies that I didn't want or worse actively dislike. What happens then? How do you get rid of those 11 points in order to select the ones you want to make your character work as there's no mechanic in place to buy off positive qualities. Are you just stuck with those 11 points worth of qualtiies being missing till after you've done a few runs and can buy them normally and have to find something else to spend the karma on in character creation rather than what you want?

For me I think positive qualities are meant to be cap free.

[Sterling]

It may be an overly simplistic take on the rules, but I read them as, you can start out over the limit on qualities purely from life modules, but as soon as you start buying additional ones you have to abide by the caps.

In other words, if you have 41 points of negative qualities from life modules and buy off some of them, you can only replace them with negative qualities that go under the limit.  Buy off one of them and still have 36 points of negative qualities, you can't get any new ones.  Buy off three of them and get your negative qualities down to 21, then you can take up to 4 points of new negative qualities.  Similarly, if life modules give you 18 points of positive qualities, you can only get up to 7 more points of them.

This is the best worded response I've seen on this matter, and it should be adopted into the Errata asap.  Well done Glyph!

For me I think positive qualities are meant to be cap free.

This is rules-lawyering of the basest kind in the mould of "It doesn't say I can't so I can".  Since the Core Rules apply unless amended by Errata or later supplements why would anyone believe that they can buy as many Positive Qualities as they want, unless they are looking to finesse the character creation system?

[Senko]

Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?

Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .

1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?

2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.

3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?

[Sterling]

Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?

Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .

1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?

2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.

3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?

Unlike some I do read each and every word of the posts I respond to.  There's no point responding otherwise.

1) Because, perhaps, writers forget that there are Rules Lawyers waiting to split the tiniest hair, and they don't want to "waste" additional word count writing something more akin to a legal document than a game book.

2) The Life Modules contain both positive and negative qualities that are included in the calculated cost.  The 750 points is to buy a set of characteristics and then polish the character off, not "buy as much as you can", although this approach explains why you have been clamouring for an increase in the amount of starting karma.

3) This should be obvious.  You don't take the module.  You use the karma you saved by not buying the module to buy the skills you want.

Life Modules are obviously not designed for the player who wants to create an idiot savant, capable of doing just one thing better than the rest of the world but incompetent in the rest of their life.  They do create well-rounded individuals with a broad base of skills, just like the majority of people in the world.

In short, if you don't like Life Modules, nobody is forcing you to use them to create the type of character you want to play.  As such, there is no need to twist the rules to fit the concept, just choose an alternative generation method.