[Senko]

No offense wasn't sure given what you'd quoted and how you were only responding to that one line.

1) Then why waste the word count on restating the core rules for negative qualities?

2) Actually I'm clamouring for extra karma because I have to spend 130 odd right off the bat for magician, magic and spells. If you want to play a decent mage via life modules you can forget most of the non-human races with the exception of a maybe elf and that requires sacrifices elsewhere.

My quality choices actually usually come in below or very close to 25 points I'm arguing against the cap because of how I read it rather than a desire to buy a hundred points of positive qualties. Usually it goes over when I start trying to buy the things other people think a magician should have (mentor spirit, a stat at 6 and one at 5 for drain, spellcasting at 6+ etc). Now if I could start a game with oh 4-5 in the core skills and attributes I'd have plenty of karma.

3) That's the thing usually the modules work out as cheaper (especially since you can't spend karma first) however with the limited amount available and the way they give you lots of level 1 skills rather than higher values you have no choice but to buy specific modules if you want a decent value in your core skills e.g. as a mage you need to take corporate - mage and street magic - street mage in order to have conjuring and spellcasting at a decent value and several of these modules have qualties that are rather specific in their application. Let's say I want to take drifter for the ability to take +1 to any two attributes of my choice, the +2 to con, +1 to negotiation, some grey and black market knowledge for my face. I get stuck with high pain tolerance and sense of direction using up 10 of my positive quality karma.

We're already severely limited in our ability to choose modules having to do so for mechanical benefits rather than flavour if we then also have to worry about the positive qualities using up all our customization choice then the whole thing may as well be chucked out the window and go with either straight karma buy or priority.

However I happen to like life modules and although I feel they need some modifying to work this is not one of those modifications. I'm not twisting the rules to fit a concept I'm reading them as written.

[Sterling]

I do agree, quite strongly in fact, that there are some odd choices when it comes to the Qualities included with the Modules.  I also wish that whomever is responsible for the final edit would bear in mind that firstly the reader may be new to the Shadowrun Universe, and secondly that the reader is not privy to the discussions regarding the whys and wherefores of new rules.

If I may quote from your last post:

Usually it goes over when I start trying to buy the things other people think a magician should have (mentor spirit, a stat at 6 and one at 5 for drain, spellcasting at 6+ etc). Now if I could start a game with oh 4-5 in the core skills and attributes I'd have plenty of karma.

For me this is the prevailing issue with the game at the moment - the school of though that a character has to be optimised in a particular way to be playable.  Why be concerned with what other people think a character should have?  Why not just create the character, or rather the person, you want to play? (Not directed at you, Senko, just a general cry to the masses).

I just know that by this point someone is thinking of bringing up that old standby "The Stormwind Fallacy", but I'm not saying you have to create a low-powered character to be able to roleplay.  All I am trying to get across is you should be able to play any character of any strength that you want to, without being vilified for having a character with "useless" skills, or "less than optimal" stats.

I have purchased Herolab for the 5th Ed rules, so make use of the Life Modules in a slightly different way (because the alternative generation methods haven't been completed as yet).  I just pick the Life Modules I want to give me a framework for the character's backstory, then try to recreate the character using the Priority method.  Yes, I end up with some level 1 and 2 skills, and I have to drop some of the Knowledge skills because I run out of karma, but I do like the characters I end up with.

As more and more Life Modules get released in future books I'm sure that players will find it easier to pick unique characters.

[DARKBLADEZD73]

Hey Chummers,
                              Thanks for all of your great post. I truly do appreciate all of your help. Although now I have even more questions. I think the RAW in the CORE STAND!
  However my GM disagrees so I cannot debate the point. It is his call. I however am the only player in the group who has not broken the system. As I explained to my fellow players, If you choose a module that brings you over the 25 max set in the core rules, Then you are not allowed to take that module and must choose another from that section.
  Otherwise a player could go through and stack multiple LM's that give qualities and have a tremendous amount of positive qualities with hardly any negatives...if any at all.
  Also, why say on pg 84 "-but only if you are under the MAXIMUM amount of negative qualities (25 Karma total)" How could they just mean negative qualities and not positive?
  Final point and this is where it became clear to me. Pg. 85 in the example character being created called TRAINWRECK...He DOES NOT exceed the 25 karma total during creation even though according to my group he could. Then he buys off all his negative qualities and Replaces them with other negative qualities up to a point value of 25 Karma and is legit according to the RAW as I understand them.

 I think I am content with my understanding of this ,but could not have gotten there without ALL of your help.

Thanks guys!

[Bluetooth]

For starters, dark, we haven't broken the system. You just don't know to make the same type of things we do. One that quality note, one of our players has 44 points in negative qualities. A perfect example of stuck qualities is if you do the military route. Aside from race, the only positive that I have is 25 points in rank.... I would take just about any other quality I could, however I am stuck with it, as I feel that is RAI.
Edit: as a side note, trainwreck take modules that don't give a lot of qualities... They should have gone with a better example.

[DARKBLADEZD73]

Bluetooth,
                  I was referring to "our" original character concepts. Mine was over the 25 Karma Limit as well. I was not talking about your current character who aside from the RANK quality you choose to take. Is a Physical Adept/Pixie that makes the Troll look like the wimp in the party!
  I mean how you even built your Pixie is beyond me. It takes 410 Karma just for the Pixie/Adept/Full Military Life Module Build. Leaving only 340 Karma for Attributes,Skills,Gear,etc; That is not a lot.
  So, how you did that sir is a true wonder ,but I guess that is why you are better at thinking outside the box than I am. I would have never been able to pull that off.
  Besides that my post was about exceeding the 25 Karma Limit for Qualities. Which was to my satisfaction answered. Pixies are another topic all together. One I care not to address at this time. Later.
  Thanks for all your help guys.

[Stoneglobe]

Did you read my other post and most of the one you quoted?

Like I said the reason I believe I can buy as many positive qualities as I want because . . .

1) If the core rules aren't different why waste word count specifying "negative" qualtiies in all those references in the paragraph and only have a brief mention of "You can buy more positive ones"?

2) Any positive qualities bought come out of the very, very tight karma limits for life module creation with a corresponding reduction in your buying power elsewhere. Its not the core rules you have 25 points of karma to buy positive qualities its you have 750 points to buy as much as you can including skills, abilities, qualties, gear and so on.

3) What happens if you get positive qualties you don't want as part of the life modules you HAVE to take to meet the minimum amount of points in a skill to have it be viable?

Unlike some I do read each and every word of the posts I respond to.  There's no point responding otherwise.

1) Because, perhaps, writers forget that there are Rules Lawyers waiting to split the tiniest hair, and they don't want to "waste" additional word count writing something more akin to a legal document than a game book.

2) The Life Modules contain both positive and negative qualities that are included in the calculated cost.  The 750 points is to buy a set of characteristics and then polish the character off, not "buy as much as you can", although this approach explains why you have been clamouring for an increase in the amount of starting karma.

3) This should be obvious.  You don't take the module.  You use the karma you saved by not buying the module to buy the skills you want.

Life Modules are obviously not designed for the player who wants to create an idiot savant, capable of doing just one thing better than the rest of the world but incompetent in the rest of their life.  They do create well-rounded individuals with a broad base of skills, just like the majority of people in the world.

In short, if you don't like Life Modules, nobody is forcing you to use them to create the type of character you want to play.  As such, there is no need to twist the rules to fit the concept, just choose an alternative generation method.

Overall I completely agree with you Stirling.

The one caveat I would potentially offer is hat if you're allowed to buy off the negative qualities that you don't want from life modules you should also be able to buy back the positive qualities that you don't want as well and receive the karma back for these. Obviously this opens up the system to some powerplayer/munchkinism such as suddenly all characters spend 4 years as a drifter before taking the points back for the unwanted qualities in order to maximise their characters but as most people who talk about "optimisation" on this forum seem to actually mean powerplay/munchkin  I really don't think that it matters.

I would be willing to guess that almost all of my characters would be considered unplayable and derided as useless by most of the people on this forum but I really love the life modules creation system as I feel you get a much more rounded and realistic character. We just need more modules.

[Triskavanski]

I would somewhat disagree with the idiot savant. But only somewhat.

The life modules are actually very good at allowing you to be really good at one thing.. though it does allow you to spread out a little bit more. In that regard I love life modules, I just it was easier to get somethings maxed out for a character who needs lots of maxing of things (Like Technomancers and their resonance stat) but thats less of a life module problem and more of the karma gen issue.