[Triskavanski]

I mean, you vs unagumented dudes. Yay! You win in speed.. But this is shadowrun. Everyone but technomancers tends to have some way to augment themselves up a bit more on initiative without hurting themselves.

If you run your stuff on silent, it takes at least Three IPs before you can do anything, cause everything on the matrix is basically a complex form.

First you have to use a Matrix perception check to start up the 20 questions to see silent icons around you in 100m. Hopefully you ask all the right questions and narrow down the group so you don't have to d o this anymore.

Then you have to make a perception check to properly see the hidden Icon, and hope you beat their logic+sleeze.

Finally you've got to actually roll to do something. Of course you can only brute force, hack on the fly, or data spike at the moment if you're a non-technomancer.

Meanwhile in the meatworld, everyone else has managed to pull out their guns and shoot a bullet on the first pass, Then on the second pass unleash a torrent of bullets, and finally finish everything off with a anti-tank rifle.

[DeathStrobe]

As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.

I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.

[Reaver]

Please go back and read 3e (or even 2e!!) Matrix rules.

Compared to those, 5e is blistering fast in terms of mechanics.

Back in 2e (less so in 3e) to get the Decker to unlock a single door was a 20 minute mini game of JUST the Decker and GM rolling dice just to get a

"Ok, the door is unlocked" response from the GM.

[Triskavanski]

It doesn't really matter what was in 3rd or 2nd, as they have no standing on how fast the matrix is in 5th. They didn't even have wireless, or the idea of wireless bonuses specifically to allow combat decking.

Speaking of wireless.. isn't turning off a devices wireless function a free action with DNI?

So someone with something like Perfect timing could turn his devices wireless on, use it, and turn it back off.

[SpellBinder]

As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.

I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.

My hackers in SR4 contributed in a meaningful way in fights all the time.  They shot back!  What good is it taking a combat turn to get a MARK before you can do something when you can shoot the person instead and have good odds of killing them just as quickly?  In most games I was in, if combat took more than one or two turns (typically one) we were doing something wrong.

[DeathStrobe]

As much as I completely agree with you. But there was quite a lot of people complaining about how fast the Matrix was when SR5 first launched, because everyone feared the damn decker to be able to actually contribute to fights in a meaningful way in a short period of time. As appose to SR4's paradigm where a hacker is 100% useless in time sensitive matters and cybercombat was completely pointless.

I just don't think people were ready for hacking being meaningful and be able to contribute to the game when SR5 first launched.

My hackers in SR4 contributed in a meaningful way in fights all the time.  They shot back!  What good is it taking a combat turn to get a MARK before you can do something when you can shoot the person instead and have good odds of killing them just as quickly?  In most games I was in, if combat took more than one or two turns (typically one) we were doing something wrong.

Because its thematic to have a hacker solve their problems, like a gun fight, with hacking.

[Herr Brackhaus]

There is a reason the term "combat Decker" exists, though. And deckers may not be good at surprise situations, but Gove them 30 seconds of full VR prep and they can make someone's day very, very bad.

That being said, I don't think it a fair to expect deckers to contribute to physical combat in the same way a street samurai does. Either the Decker picks up a weapon and fights alongside the samurai, or he does what he does best; manipulate the Matrix while the samurai takes care of the fighting.

Just like you wouldn't expect a face to be a full on samurai, the Decker has his place to shine; the Matrix. Further bridging the Matrix with meatworld pacing is not something I would consider a good idea. As it is, deckers have plenty of ways to contribute in combat without being full samurai, and I'm quite happy with that personally.

[ScytheKnight]

Some of the new qualities in Data Trails helps out. Go Big or Go Home actually makes placing multiple marks an interesting prospect... taking -6 to toss on 3 marks at the same time speeds up a lot of the core hacking interactions.

[Triskavanski]

Deckers might have plenty of ways, Technomancers not so much. Same kinda for riggers actually, as at least one IP per combat round for a Rigger is used to not make drone/vehical find the nearest solid surface.

But in all honesty, Does a team really even need a decker or technomancer?


Go big/Go home still doesn't let you bypass the first 3 rounds of doing nothing against a silent running dude.

[ScytheKnight]

Shoot them in the head?

Not really sure that a hacker in AR should be able to hack at the speed of typical combat... hell trust me, even in Hot Sim it's a struggle to stay at that pace.

I think it's less a case of how slow Matrix is, as how FAST combat is.

[Triskavanski]

Combat would be a heck of a lot slower if you had to spend a complex action to look out your eye holes to see people. another to lock in on one, and then be able to shoot for a little bit of dmg.

[ScytheKnight]

Yeah but on the other hand people in VR can be crazy fast and now with Data Trails can easily hit 5D6 initiative dice in Hot Sim.

it comes down to what's more effective? Shooting the guy or hacking his gear? Don't get me wrong I see what your saying... but the realm of the hacker tends to be hosts and VR matrix work... combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.

[Herr Brackhaus]

combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.

Completely agreed. Hackers, faces, riggers, and even magicians have their time to shine, but physical combat is the primary focus of adepts and samurai.

That's not to say there can't be secondary roles or some degree of overlap, but I wouldn't expect a hacker to be a primary combatant, physical or matrix wise.

[Triskavanski]

 

Yeah but on the other hand people in VR can be crazy fast and now with Data Trails can easily hit 5D6 initiative dice in Hot Sim.

In hot sim VR you get 4d6 dice without that data trails item. +1d6 isn't something that makes you really all that much faster.

An adept with 3 ranks of Improved reflexes can Achieve 4d6 dice at all times, adding 3 more points to his reaction stat.
A Mage who gets the improved reflexes spell, could fairly easily use it to give him +x +xd6 more initiative, Regularly this is likely to give him +1~2d6 extra dice, but with enough ranks in his spell casting, could probably rank up to getting +5d6
Street Sams can buy Wired reflexes, to get 4d6 dice. Then they can buy more reaction enhancers to get a total reaction above +4

So everyone (But technomancers) has the ability to get the normal Hotsim VR level of initiative. All of their actions are less action costy, having a lot of free and simple actions, and a handful of complex actions. Adepts enjoy the benefits of making it so more actions are free actions. And with Perfect timing, we can increase the number of our free actions by 1.

it comes down to what's more effective? Shooting the guy or hacking his gear? Don't get me wrong I see what your saying... but the realm of the hacker tends to be hosts and VR matrix work... combat is the realm of the adept and samurai.

What should be more effective is having the hackers have the ability to back up his crew in more ways than what his  adept and samurai buddy are doing. Cause Physical Combat is the Sam/Adept/Mages world while CyberCombat should be the Decker/Technomancer.

However, with as slow as the matrix work is, (Since its not really at all faster than other runners who are in meat land, and everything takes so many complex actions to do) honestly, I don't see why a team would need a hacker PC in the first place.

[Herr Brackhaus]

A Technomancers can get the same initiative boost a magician can if the technomancer has a magician teammate who, in exchange for keeping team comms secure and operational, cast the same spell on the technomancer. This is a team game, after all.