[Rosa]

Don't know if this belongs here or in the house rules sections. But one of the Things that really put me off SR5 for a long time was what they did to direct combat spells, i initially felt that the nerf was too hard, then i started coming around only to find out that now you can run around and zap people with force 1 killer manabolts simply by expending reagents. Don't get me wrong i actually like the idea of reagents, but this just seems to be "Not working as intended"

So i was wondering if any of you Guys have made/ are using houserules that alters the way that either direct combat spells Works or how reagents Work..etc?

[Medicineman]

in my Own Campaign (SR2055 mix from SR4A & 5 Rules)
 Direct Combatspells do 1/2 Force (round down) Base Damage Plus Net Hits
and Indirect Combatspells do Full Force Damage Plus Net Hits

There is also the Pos Qual....'Eat my hot Magic'....or 'Feel my Wrath' or something that raises base Damage of Direct Spells by two and Drain by 2 too

with a House Dance
Medicineman

[Top Dog]

For manabolts in particular, there's no real difference in going Force 1 and Force 5 (they both inflict 2 drain). Granted, you can go higher than that with reagents, but then you have to actually spend those reagents - and setting them to, say, 8 "just in case" gets expensive quick. After all, it's wasted unless you actually roll those successes, and it takes a while to get enough dice to reliably do that. What's more, once you do, you probably have enough drain to sort-of-safely cast at, say, Force 7 as well.

It's a bigger deal for area spells, though. But still, you're basically expending a grenade's worth of resources every time to probably do less damage than a grenade would. So I don't think it's a massive issue.

[Reaver]

Well, it gives magrs something else to spend money on 😆

[Herr Brackhaus]

Don't forget that a Force 1 spell is harder to spot. With Spellcasting 6 a Force 1 spell is a threshold 5 test, while a Force 5 spell is a threshold 1 test; in other words, you could get away with throwing low-level spells without the opposition immediately going "GEEK THE MAGE!". I personally think this is a huge advantage, if your table plays up the subtleness of magic.

[FasterN8]

1/2 force round down seems like a reasonable buff.  I might go 1/3 round up, I'll have to think about that...

I might also/instead rule that Area Direct combat spells cannot be dodged with the Run for your Life interrupt actions.  It's not like indirect spells (or grenade) where there is a physical effect traveling through the air.  It just happens.  And like the manabolt or magic missile, it simply connects with the auras in the AOE.

[Herr Brackhaus]

FasterN8; direct combat spells already cannot be dodged with Run For Your Life.

Immediately after a Throwing Weapons Attack or Area-Effect Indirect Combat Spell Spellcasting Test, a character can make an immediate Interrupt Action to flee.

[Xenon]

Many spells are obvious and don't require a test to spot (including but not limited to indirect combat spells and being subject of control action spell).

Noticing magic is used to notice more subtle forms of magic (including but not limited to a spirit moving through the room in astral space, a projecting magician moving through your aura, being subject of control thought spell).

[FasterN8]

FasterN8; direct combat spells already cannot be dodged with Run For Your Life.

Immediately after a Throwing Weapons Attack or Area-Effect Indirect Combat Spell Spellcasting Test, a character can make an immediate Interrupt Action to flee.

My mistake.  Thanks for the heads up.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Many spells are obvious and don't require a test to spot (including but not limited to indirect combat spells and being subject of control action spell).

Noticing magic is used to notice more subtle forms of magic (including but not limited to a spirit moving through the room in astral space, a projecting magician moving through your aura, being subject of control thought spell).

Direct combat spells may or may not be more subtle than indirect combat spells due to their (potential) lack of an elemental effect. Blast is described as having a very visible and/or audible effect, but what about a stunbolt? I'd base those off of the force of the spell, and observers would have to roll against the threshold to spot who the caster were.

[Xenon]

I'm sure there are very obvious direct combat spells as well (at least if you are the subject of one) and there might be cases were an indirect combat spell is subtle, but I can't really think of one (in most cases there will be some kind of magic effect projecting out from the magician all the way to the target... like fire or acid etc).

Some spells might be obvious to some observers but not others. Control Actions might be a subtle spell for people around the subject, but for the subject it is clear that someone is controlling his actions like a puppet master....


edit: Stunbolt is probably obvious for the recipient but might (or might not?) be subtle for a third party observer.

[Overbyte]

I brought this up in another thread, but the consensus seems to be that casting Force 1 spells and using reagents is not perceived as "overpowered" by most other people. I actually think it is other spells where it can really shine (those that have drain much higher that a simple bolt).

[Rosa]

Thats my opinion as well that it's very overpowered and somewhat silly as well. The Whole reagents Things Works very well when the effects are based somewhat on force, but when they aren't based on force but rather on just hits using reagents very easily becomes a way of breaking the game. Just imagine casting 3 force 1 manabolts at the same time and using ten reagents on each. So in effect you just cast 3 force ten manabolts at the same time for a measly 600 nuyen with drain that is relatively easily handled and it's extremely hard to notice to boot. That would relatively easily insta-kill most targets
@Medicineman: That houserule sounds interesting, i might give that a try.

Btw thanks for all the responses Guys.

[prionic6]

cast 3 force ten manabolts at the same time

You would need a massive dice pool to simultaneously cast 3 mana bolts with 10 hits each...

[Rosa]

True, it was just an example of how it theoretically can be misused, maybe not the best example though.