[JmOz01]

I am learning ...My play style has always been based around infiltrators so working on my mage and trying to understand all of the rules (As the game seems to be on hiatus I have a while).  I am putting this thread up for questions about spirits that occur to me

Most of my questions right now are based on sustaining spells

Can a spirit sustain a spell that is not of it's type (based on tradition).  For example a Shaman does not need to use a earth elemental for healing spells


Does the force of the spell play into the spirit sustaining it?


Does a spirit have to materialize to help the spellcaster (By sustaining or providing a die bonus?)


Could a Ally spirit be used to basically permanently sustain a spell (Unlimited actions x Force Combat turns = nonstop).  If so does this make it better than a level 4 sustaining foci

[Overbyte]

Can a spirit sustain a spell that is not of it's type (based on tradition).  For example a Shaman does not need to use a earth elemental for healing spells

I was wondering this also, since it mentions type under aiding spellcasting but not under sustaining. I rule it is necessary for either.

Does the force of the spell play into the spirit sustaining it?

Also, doesn't say so in book. But since you can sustain spells above your Magic rating I would think they can also.
But I could see a house rule if you didn't like it. I have thought about making one.

Does a spirit have to materialize to help the spellcaster (By sustaining or providing a die bonus?)

No. Spells are present in Astral space so no need for them to materialize.

Could a Ally spirit be used to basically permanently sustain a spell (Unlimited actions x Force Combat turns = nonstop).  If so does this make it better than a level 4 sustaining foci

That's a complicated question IMO. This would be very annoying for the spirit giving it a permanent -2 to all actions. So I would think it is best not.

[JmOz01]

Thank you for the replies.  Appreciate it a lot.  If I have more questions will add to this thread

[Reaver]

I am learning ...My play style has always been based around infiltrators so working on my mage and trying to understand all of the rules (As the game seems to be on hiatus I have a while).  I am putting this thread up for questions about spirits that occur to me

Most of my questions right now are based on sustaining spells

Can a spirit sustain a spell that is not of it's type (based on tradition).  For example a Shaman does not need to use a earth elemental for healing spells


Does the force of the spell play into the spirit sustaining it?


Does a spirit have to materialize to help the spellcaster (By sustaining or providing a die bonus?)


Could a Ally spirit be used to basically permanently sustain a spell (Unlimited actions x Force Combat turns = nonstop).  If so does this make it better than a level 4 sustaining foci

1: A spirit can only sustain a spell of it's type, based off of your tradition. So to sustain a health spell, you need a spirit from your tradition's health, such as a Spirit of man for the Hermetic tradition.

2:No the force of the spell has nothing to do with sustaining it.

3:Dedends. physical and astral don't mix. So to help sustain or cast a spell the spirit must be on the same plane as the caster.

4: Spirits can only sustain a spell for its ,{FORCE} in combat turns.  (pg 302) While you do get unlimited services for an ally spirit, it is still limited in how many turns it can sustain a spell for due to it's force. (I suggest you try not to get to rules technical lawyer on a GM on this issue as I have a seen try. That just never ends well)

[Tarislar]

1.  Can a spirit sustain a spell that is not of it's type (based on tradition).

2.  Does the force of the spell play into the spirit sustaining it?

3.  Does a spirit have to materialize to help the spellcaster (By sustaining or providing a die bonus?)

4.  Could a Ally spirit be used to basically permanently sustain a spell (Unlimited actions x Force Combat turns = nonstop). 

5.  If so does this make it better than a level 4 sustaining foci

You already have 2 different answers, so I'll toss mine out there too & give you some pages to reference...

1.  Yes.  Per CRB Pg. 302 below, you can see that the same Type/Spell is for AID tasks, not for Sustaining which is listed later.

BOUND SPIRIT SERVICES
Aid Alchemy, Sorcery, and Study: As a service, the spirit can add its Force as a dice pool bonus to your Alchemy, Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting (for spell rituals), and Learning Tests if its type matches the spell’s category, as listed under your tradition (p. 279).

Spell sustaining: You can have a spirit sustain a spell for you after you cast it. It takes the –2 dice pool penalty per sustained spell, instead of you. It can’t do this forever— only for its Force in Combat Turns for each service you spend on spell sustaining.

2.  No

3.  Yes, in most cases.  AFAIK, the only time he wouldn't is if the Caster, Target, & Spell (Mana) were all in astral space.  See "Powers" Pg. 394.

POWERS
In order for a critter to use a power against a target, they have to be in the same state, either astral or physical.
Astral forms cannot affect physical targets, and physical forms cannot affect astral targets (see The Astral World, p. 312).
An astral critter that can materialize can affect physical targets if they do so, however, and dual-natured critters can interact with the astral plane as
easily as the physical one.

4.  In theory, yes.  But he has to be materialized & will constantly be penalized.  Like having a butler walk around wiping your chin after every time you drink.  Its going to get old for the spirit & he'll be annoyed.  Also the spirit can be targeted by anyone so count on getting shot at.  Not to mention the odd looks & down right hostility that you might get from everyone on the street (especially enforcement types).

5.  A foci is much better IMHO.  You can turn it on/off quickly & its heck of a lot easier to use than summoning an ally spirit just to sustain a spell.

[Tarislar]

I rule it is necessary for either.

No. Spells are present in Astral space so no need for them to materialize.

1: A spirit can only sustain a spell of it's type, based off of your tradition. So to sustain a health spell, you need a spirit from your tradition's health, such as a Spirit of man for the Hermetic tradition.

Per the CRB pages I linked, I'd say your incorrect on these counts.

[Overbyte]

Does a spirit have to materialize to help the spellcaster (By sustaining or providing a die bonus?)

Actually.. after re-reading the question and seeing Tarislar's post I'm rethinking my answer.
If the spirit is asked to sustain a spell they don't have to materialize since the spell can be sustained AFTER casting and at that point the spirit only needs to affect the spell not the caster.

If they want to aid your casting they have to target you and therefore WOULD need to become materialized.

[Tarislar]

Actually.. after re-reading the question and seeing Tarislar's post I'm rethinking my answer.
If the spirit is asked to sustain a spell they don't have to materialize since the spell can be sustained AFTER casting and at that point the spirit only needs to affect the spell not the caster.

Its important to realize that the "spell" is not the TARGET.  The Target is whoever is the target of the spell.
So if the target is on the material plane then the spirit must be as well.  So sustaining a buff spell means you have to materialize.

[Overbyte]

Actually.. after re-reading the question and seeing Tarislar's post I'm rethinking my answer.
If the spirit is asked to sustain a spell they don't have to materialize since the spell can be sustained AFTER casting and at that point the spirit only needs to affect the spell not the caster.

Its important to realize that the "spell" is not the TARGET.  The Target is whoever is the target of the spell.
So if the target is on the material plane then the spirit must be as well.  So sustaining a buff spell means you have to materialize.

I don't think the passage you quoted speaks to this at all, and I'm even wavering on my stance about aiding. This is not a "critter using a power against a target". That rule seems to me to avoid such nonsense as having spirits be able to cause havoc from the Astral plane without a mundane being able to fight back. A spirit using a service on your behalf is a totally different thing IMO.
That being said.. I think a reasonable person could go either way on this one.

[gradivus]

There's just this little sentence that everyone wants to ignore from street grimoire... Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit[.../color]

If you take this as written, then all bound spirit tasks are limited by it's type...so, while I'm probably in the minority, this is how I play it.

However, all unbound tasks can be done by any of the spirits IMHO.

Again, I'm probably wrong, but it's how I see it.

[Overbyte]

Makes sense to me.

[SpellBinder]

There's just this little sentence that everyone wants to ignore from street grimoire... Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit...

If you take this as written, then all bound spirit tasks are limited by it's type...so, while I'm probably in the minority, this is how I play it.

However, all unbound tasks can be done by any of the spirits IMHO. *

Again, I'm probably wrong, but it's how I see it.

Take what you quoted from Street Grimoire literally and you're saying that only Combat spirits will actually fight, meaning  that a spirit like a bound water elemental (not a Combat spirit by any tradition listed in SR5, Street Grimoire, or Shadow Spells) will never fight and arguably could never take any kind of combat related action (like defending) at all.

*  Not IMHO, but RAW.  SR5, page 302, states it quite clearly in black & white, and as far as I know Street Grimoire does not contradict that in a way that is so cut & dry.  Now if you incorporate the Spirit Reputation system, then GMs can have bound non-Combat spirits get pissy about having to fight a magician's battles, and thus earn Spirit Index points more quickly.

[Top Dog]

The Street Grimoire stealth nerf is not very loved indeed, and most people ignore it (it contradict the main book). Also it only applies to the traditions in Street Grimoire which makes it extra silly.

Having an ally spirit sustain a spell for you 24/7 seems like a good way to piss him off. However, I could see him sustaining it for you when you actually need it (IE during a mission), regardless of actual length (as long as he gets his breaks).

I could swear that spirits are limited to sustaining spells of a Force up to their own, but I can't find that written...

[Kiirnodel]

There's just this little sentence that everyone wants to ignore from street grimoire... Assigning tasks outside the general area of their tradition will not receive a response from the spirit...

If you take this as written, then all bound spirit tasks are limited by it's type...so, while I'm probably in the minority, this is how I play it.

However, all unbound tasks can be done by any of the spirits IMHO. *

Again, I'm probably wrong, but it's how I see it.

Take what you quoted from Street Grimoire literally and you're saying that only Combat spirits will actually fight, meaning  that a spirit like a bound water elemental (not a Combat spirit by any tradition listed in SR5, Street Grimoire, or Shadow Spells) will never fight and arguably could never take any kind of combat related action (like defending) at all.

*  Not IMHO, but RAW.  SR5, page 302, states it quite clearly in black & white, and as far as I know Street Grimoire does not contradict that in a way that is so cut & dry.  Now if you incorporate the Spirit Reputation system, then GMs can have bound non-Combat spirits get pissy about having to fight a magician's battles, and thus earn Spirit Index points more quickly.

Not quite. The passage notes that a spirit will not respond if "given a task" that falls outside of its general area. A task is a broad concept can can have a lot of interpretations. For example, asking a Health spirit to "keep those people alive" could very easily result in a spirit taking part in a combat (at least defensively). Or asking a Manipulation spirit to "make those people stay put" can be very tactically advantageous in a combat situation. Most importantly, the assigning tasks note in Street Grimoire does not limit a spirit's response to stimuli other than the summoner. If a spirit is attacked, it can defend itself. It won't perform services that don't fall within its purpose, that doesn't mean that non-Combat spirits won't fight if asked the right way or put into a situation where it has to defend itself.

[Dal Thrax]

Can't spirits with the innate spell ability sustain those spells for longer than a couple of combat turns?

Oh, and this entire spirit not being able to take any action the falls outside of its category thing is ridiculous, and not intended by Street Grimoire.  A spirit cannot aid study or provide bonus dice to a school that it is not associated with, even if it is associated with that school in another tradition.  For example a fire spirit (combat) cannot bonus your health spells even though in another tradition fire spirits are the health spirits.  Not really a big deal, but helpful for corner cases like one caster telling his spirit to aid study for another caster.