[Hibiki54]

I would like to create some discussion on this matter since it relates to a home campaign character and may apply to Shadowrun Missions play.

I am currently playing a Psionic Tradition mage in my home campaign. I wanted to try something different from the typical spellcasters and I have never experienced a possession mage in play, so why not myself. And I have already received a ruling on Possession from my GM, so this is mainly for general discussion with the online community and open play.

First off, Possession Traditions are limited in that their spirits are unable to Materialize with their own physical bodies. You can only summon spirits to gain services on the Astral Plane. They can, however, possess your body or possess a prepared vessel if your choosing. With creature knowledge from sources capable of Inhabitation and Possession such as Shedim and Bug Spirits, one would assume that a Possession Tradition summoner having his called spirit enter his body would grant him Immunity to Normal Weapons. Character builders such as Herolab seem to allow such types of options as legal and player experience in Missions (from 2015 Origins Game Fair experience) that Possession spirits do gain Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Going by what is written in Street Grimore, Possession replaced Materialization. Possession does not grant Immunity to Normal Weapons in its text. However, there are many examples in Missions official mods in which Possession grants Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Discussion?

[Top Dog]

Possession isn't limited to Prepared Vessels - they can attempt to possess any (living or object) target. You can absolutely order your spirit to "Possess that guy on the left that's shooting us and make him shoot his friends".

(Possession rolls Force x 2 vs. Intuition + Willpower. Prepared Vessels do give a +6 to the spirit, so it helps, but it's not necessary.)

Possession does not give Immunity to Natural Weapons. That's only given to materialized spirits; possession spirits do not get it (and that's not an oversight; they're not supposed to get it either) and do not give it to those they possess. The missions you encounter are either in error, or had it added to specific spirits to stay in line with their 4E versions (when they did have it) - but in that case it still wouldn't apply to PC's.

[Hibiki54]

The Mission mods that I played were mods that premiered at Origins. Specifically SRM 06-06 Fallen Angels, also known as SRM 06-06 Lose Permanent Edge. These are also mods created well after Street Grimore became legal and are checked and playtested by the CDT before becoming official.

If you take the Possession power as written, it actually makes Possession Spirits (including Shedim) fairly weak in comparison to normal spirits as their method of appearing on the material requires a vessel. And to take over a living vessel, it requires a contested roll. And while they do not need a contested roll for the summoner (which is awesome for Psionic Task Spirits), in terms of combat it takes the PC off the board until the spirit completes its task or is dropped. In terms of prepared vessels outside of the PC summoner, it takes a fairly long time to prepare a vessel, especially vehicles or drones that have 15+ resistance dice.

[Top Dog]

The Mission mods that I played were mods that premiered at Origins. Specifically SRM 06-06 Fallen Angels, also known as SRM 06-06 Lose Permanent Edge. These are also mods created well after Street Grimore became legal and are checked and playtested by the CDT before becoming official.

Well timing doesn't really matter. Possession does not give Immunity to Natural Weapons in SR5. It could be an error, or a concious design - mission designers, just like any GM, can give their spirits whatever they want, including Immunity to Normal Weapons. But that's not as a result of being a Possession spirit and, unless your GM houserules it, player spirits don't get it.

If you take the Possession power as written, it actually makes Possession Spirits (including Shedim) fairly weak in comparison to normal spirits as their method of appearing on the material requires a vessel. And to take over a living vessel, it requires a contested roll. And while they do not need a contested roll for the summoner (which is awesome for Psionic Task Spirits), in terms of combat it takes the PC off the board until the spirit completes its task or is dropped. In terms of prepared vessels outside of the PC summoner, it takes a fairly long time to prepare a vessel, especially vehicles or drones that have 15+ resistance dice.

Mmm true, I guess, but it has it's perks as well. Possession itself - which for decent-force spirits has a good chance of success - will take out one of your opponents out of the gate, unlike Materialization spirits which have to wait for a full pass before they can do anything, if they start from the astral. Plus, the roll is about the same as any other spirit power, with about the same chances at success (and there's no reason why the spirit can't try again). There's circumstances where it's a big disadvantage, of course - but there's circumstances where it's an advantage as well.

And while you lose ItNW, you usually do have a higher body, plus the regular armor of whatever you're possessing - which is usually in the same order of magnitude (of course, not hardened, which is bad - but then, it works against magic attacks as well).

[Dal Thrax]

I think the description physical attributes is unclear for item possession.  If I have a spirit possess a gun does it give a bonus of half its force to Accuracy, Damage, AP and Recoil Compensation (as long as the numbers are less than the spirits force, unlikely for damage).  Also keep in mind that a spirit in a device can aid another (though so can a spirit outside a device).  A guardian spirit with skill in automatics can give you extra dice on your attack role (or course you could just hand it an AK if it were materialized). 

Also, keep in mind that spirits in an item can use their powers while being unobtrusive.  For example, a spirit of man in your cuff link can cast Improve Reflexes on your and sustain it as a normal magician with a spell (i.e. for more than a couple combat turns), without having to have a manifest spirit physically following you around.  Also see some of the mind affecting powers that a spirit of man gets. 

Oh and remember that a possessing spirit gives a bonus to armor value regardless of if it's force is higher than the current armor value (because those bonuses are handled by a different section of the rules).  If nothing else, possession is worth an extra bonus to your armor.

[SmilinIrish]

I've been examining possession rules as I contemplate the channeling metamagic.  I haven't run across anything about armor.  Can you provide a reference?

[Top Dog]

I thought that was an Ally Spirit thing (and only an ally spirit thing).

Still, Dal Thrax, good point on the unobtrusive casting, I never thought of using possession spirits like that.

[Hibiki54]

Here is another question.

When a spirit possess your body, can the spirit fly?

[Reaver]

Here is another question.

When a spirit possess your body, can the spirit fly?

The spirit?
Or you?


Spirits are not (normally) bound to the laws of gavity when they 'materialize', but possession spirits can't materialize.

As for the 'host' flying, only if it could before. Or if a spell such as levitate is used.

[FasterN8]

I don't think a possessed gun would be any better at shooting since possession only adds to the "structure and armor ratings".  Also a person couldn't fly because "...It can only move in ways the vessel can normally perform"  unless flight is one of it's magical powers, I'd say no.  As for a possessed gun aiding the shooter, I'm not really sure.  Shooting is not normally something that is subject to aid another, but then again there's not normally a life-force who can pull the trigger for you in the gun either.

The armor possession thing is REALLY interesting though.  I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work.  It might feel a little creepy though since the spirit would be fully capable of moving your sleeve with your arm in it.

This is a great discussion.  At first I was really ticked off to see the channeling metamagic because it seemed to cheat the possession traditions of what make them special.  Possession traditions clearly got some cool abilities by giving up some other cool abilities (materialization).  Then along come channeling and gives everyone else all the best parts of Possession AND MORE since the mage is still in control, and can still use materialized spirits.  Now it seems clear that the ability to send spirits into other combatants and inanimate objects might be one of the coolest features and not something you can get with channeling.

  I have a question.  For a Mystic adept using possession, what adept powers of his still operate while he's possessed?  Improved Attribute?  Mystic Armor?  Thermographic?  Combat sense?  Where is the line exactly?  I know spirits can't activate cyberware or do any DNI stuff, but what about activated and non-activated adept abilities?

[Reaver]

Remember, adept abilities come in 2 forms, active and passive.

The passive abilities would stay active, unless the adept choose to turn them off.

Active abilities require the adept to channel mana into themselves through force of will, at the cost of drain...

So depending on if the adept is aware during the possesion, he can choose to use his abilities  SEPERATE from that of the possessing spirit. But I don't think a spirit can just activate any power in a possessed adept. Its not like there is button that says "push for combat sense" and an other that says "push for agility boost"...

[FasterN8]

Well, I agree with you, I'm just wondering about the fuzzy middle ground. 

Adept boost, killing hands and the like are definitely activated abilities.  And though Killing hands does not have a drain I would not let a spirit access it any more than I would let it access a mages spells.

Completely passive things like Improved attribute and Mystic armor I would think would still work as well as stuff like Natural immunity and Temperature tolerance.

What about magical senses?  Things get fuzzy here because senses are mostly passive powers like Improved sense (Thermographic) as well as things like Danger Sense.  Danger sense isn't exactly activated, it's always on for the adept, but it doesn't seem like it should work for a spirit, much like Combat Sense (which is not listed with an activation action either).  Would these only work for the consciousness of the adept? 

Along those lines, when the Possessed Mystic Adept and spirit are merged into one and have become a dual being, the spirit is clearly using the Adepts senses to see the real world.   But since they both make up the dual being, is the adept also able to see into the astral?  Could the adept make assensing tests with his own dice even though the spirit is running the show?  Kinda makes for a free power point if it works.

[Reaver]

Well, that question depends on if the adrpt is aware while possessed....

And i am not sure as i away from my books...

If he is awake, then he could use astral perception (if he has it). The question is, is it useful?
Considering he can't react nor communicate what he sees (the spirit is in full control of the body, including the mouth!)


Remember this is not the case of "there is a spirit in me, so i can do nifty things!!"

Its a case of:  "I am a puppet moved and controled by the spirit in me, and I am along for the ride!"

If the possessing spirit decides to try out your waffle iron on your face, you get burned....(and get a really "cool" cross check brand!)

[FasterN8]

Does the adept even need Astral Perception?  The book says "both the spirit and the vessel are considered a single dual-natured entity for the possession's duration."  As a parallel, Ghouls do not have the astral perception power, they have the Dual-Natured power which means they can see and interact with both naturally.  Of course even if this worked, It's not like the vessel couldn't even direct where he was looking.

The whole idea would probably work a lot better with channeling where the summoner is in full control of the body.  Esp while using channeling, I don't see how the summoner could be a "single dual-natured entity" and not be able to see astral, regardless of what powers he did or didn't have. 

Then again, I've been wrong before.

[FasterN8]

New question about a possessed Mystic Adept (or Mage). 

If the vessel has a bonded weapon focus (that was activated prior to the possession), does the possessing spirit gain the benefit of those foci dice while making armed attacks with the weapon focus?