[Hibiki54]

That would be a question for your GM as that would vary between individual interpretation. I would only say 'Yes' if the person has the Channeling metamagic or is the Summoner.

[FasterN8]

Well, I am the GM in our home game, but I was mainly asking for Missions purposes (where I finally get to play!).  I would be inclined to agree, that it should work, esp with channeling, I was just curious of others opinions.

[Jayde Moon]

There are two points I want to return to in this thread:

Possession Spirits do not 'grant' Immunity to Normal Weapons and Spirits (which can fly) do not grant their Host Body the ability to Fly.

I am having a hard time finding where in 5th Edition Sourcebooks these are mentioned.  It has been stated that the former is 'an oversight', but where can we find the notation that this is an oversight?  Are we basing this off of 4th Edition rules?

So, yeah, looking for actual references on those two notes.

[Hibiki54]

If that is the case then Shedim should not have Immunity to Normal Weapons in SRM mods since Missions uses the official stats and powers of critters.

Looking at you SRM 06-06.

Only Inhabitation grants Immunity to Normal Weapons and Shedim, of any type, do not have this. Only Insect Spirits have the Inhabitation power.

[Reaver]

There are two points I want to return to in this thread:

Possession Spirits do not 'grant' Immunity to Normal Weapons and Spirits (which can fly) do not grant their Host Body the ability to Fly.

I am having a hard time finding where in 5th Edition Sourcebooks these are mentioned.  It has been stated that the former is 'an oversight', but where can we find the notation that this is an oversight?  Are we basing this off of 4th Edition rules?

So, yeah, looking for actual references on those two notes.

Its in how you get there:

Materialization: (pg 398, CRB) states that a materialized spirit gains Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Inhabitation: (pg:195/196 SG) states that a completed inhabitation gains Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Possession: (pg: 197 SG) does NOT STATE ANYTHING about possession spirits gaining Immunity to Normal Weapons, and lays out just what and how a possessed vessel gains a modifier by a spirit.

Possession: also states under the Dead/Inanimate Vesselsbullet that a spirit possessing a gun "...can fire the gun, but can not move the gun..."



*it also doesn't state a living vessel gains the ability to fly. However it does state that "...both spirit and vessel are considered one single dual-natured entity for the duration"

Take that, with what it says about not being able to physically move a gun (which doesn't have it's own locomotion), and I take that to mean that no, a vessel (such as a metahuman) can NOT fly while possessed, unless that vessel already had the ability to fly, like a Bird, or a RotoDrone.

[Jayde Moon]

Thanks for those references.  It looks like the wording on Materialization does preclude possession spirits from granting Immunity to Normal Weapons, in plain black and white.  The spirits themselves do not have Immunity to Normal Weapons, but they have the Materialization power which grants them Immunity when they use that power.

Now, I'm more iffy on 'flight':

That's mostly because I assume that a spirit has access to it's Abilities when possessing, unless annotated otherwise by the entry on Possession Spirits.

The entry LITERALLY only states that they get:

• Decrease to Wound Modifiers
• Possible Bonus to Physical Attributes
• The Spirit's Mental and Special Attributes
• It's Own Skills

It does not expressly say that it gets access to any of the critter's innate powers.  So do they?  Can a possessing Fire Spirit still use it's Confusion Power, or it's Engulf?  Is it still Allergic to Water?

If so, then why would it not confer it's magical ability to 'Move in Any Direction' regardless of Gravity?  If that's really just a matter of opinion and speculation and not actually spelled out... 

Of course, if Spirits don't get access to any of their abilities not expressly spelled out on pg 197 SG... then I agree they can't fly... but it seems generally accepted that they get access to their powers...

I feel like these spirits are using their confusion power on me.

[Reaver]

As to why they don't, I imagine it has to do with the spirits and the respective ways they visit the material plane.

Materialization basically "creates" a body for the spirit out of Ether and Echtoplasm. It has no organs, or digestive system, nor sensory organs. So, what really does a bullet or a knife do to them?
Well, the mechanics tell us what happens, that is it, it doesn't describe what happens: a 0 damage result could be one of several things,

1: the bullets bounce off
2: the bullets just "miss"
3: the bullets rip through the form, but cause the actual entity no harm. (think Zombie, shooting it in the chest... it bouncing back a tiny bit, but doesn't care nor 'feel' the wound)
4: the bullet pass through the target, and the target instantly heals (AKA the Wolverine "healing factor" from comics and movies)
5: Batman shows up, jumps in the way, deflects all the bullets, and jumps back out. (Hey! it COULD happen!!)

The end result is the same, the thing took no damage, but each variation up there has a different dramatic feel to it. Most games don't do into it and just leave it at "you fail to do damage to the spirit" (I personally go with a descriptor, but hey....)

My personal belief is that the round just pass right on through, and without blood, tissues, and Organs, weapons just don't have what it "takes" to actually hurt the spirit...


I mean, I'm pretty much a drunken redneck, and I admit FREELY I have sat around more then my fair share of campfires... with loaded weapons. And I will even admit to firing those weapons, at night, while around a campfire.... drunk. Heck I will even admit to shooting the FIRE. At night. while drunk. with a firearm. And you know what? I really don't think it noticed.


Inhabitation gets you some funky and FUGLY things, but the end result is usually the same.... the spirit warps and takes over the body. (note: Flesh forms, they are the exception) This warping is both of the flesh and the memories of the host (the personality, and core "heself" of the host, are totally gone.) that twists the flesh of the host into a twisted host/spirit trait "thing". Who to say what the actual vital anatomy of this monster actually is/are?


Possession: you have the vessel and the spirit merged into one form. if that form is metahuman, well we know where a metahuman heart is... and the lungs, and all those other sloppy bits.

And when you get right down to it, a gun really is only effective against things with sloppy bits

*Now here is the gaping hole in my theory. A flesh form is an "almost perfect" union... meaning that the anatomy is not that changed so, by my theory, it shouldn't have ITNW, but it does.  o.0

[Reaver]

It does not expressly say that it gets access to any of the critter's innate powers.  So do they?  Can a possessing Fire Spirit still use it's Confusion Power, or it's Engulf?  Is it still Allergic to Water?

If so, then why would it not confer it's magical ability to 'Move in Any Direction' regardless of Gravity?  If that's really just a matter of opinion and speculation and not actually spelled out... 

Of course, if Spirits don't get access to any of their abilities not expressly spelled out on pg 197 SG... then I agree they can't fly... but it seems generally accepted that they get access to their powers...

I feel like these spirits are using their confusion power on me.

like I said say above,

When a Spirit materializes it "makes" its body out of Ether and Echtoplasm, two "mediums" that have a physical presence, but lack a elemental construct. (ether and echtoplasm are not made up of elements off the periodic table). In short, they are not real. don't confuse an physical presence for physical properties.


How much does a FORCE 1 fire spirit weigh?
How about a FORCE 1 earth spirit?
FORCE 1 spirit of man?


How much does a FORCE 20 fire spirit weigh?
Or a FORCE 20 earth spirit?
or Force 20 Spirit of Man?

Do they make noise when they move?
Do you hear them "swooshing" through the air?

Does a FORCE 20 spirit that appears as 6 year old girl weigh more then a FORCE 1 spirit appearing as a firetruck?



Questions, in answers, that lead to questions in the answers, that lead to the answers of the original question that remains unanswered.

[Jayde Moon]

Yup, those are questions that aren't answered in the rulebooks... but rather decided by the GM at your table...

It does seem odd to me that if a Possession Spirit suddenly gives my Ork 8+ in all stats, is engulfed in flames, murders people with fire... but damn it, we draw the LINE at FLYING.  FLYING!?!  That's just RIDICULOUS!

[Reaver]

Yup, those are questions that aren't answered in the rulebooks... but rather decided by the GM at your table...

It does seem odd to me that if a Possession Spirit suddenly gives my Ork 8+ in all stats, is engulfed in flames, murders people with fire... but damn it, we draw the LINE at FLYING.  FLYING!?!  That's just RIDICULOUS!

here's a better question. (And no, I didn't look up the answer, if there is anything even official posted/written).

But. If said possession spirit uses an aura, does the vessel suffer the effects? I mean, does the Host gain immunity to those flames? Or is the Spirit 'cooking' the vessel too??

(Half of me saying 'yes' half of me says 'no'..... Both have interesting RP options available to them.)

[FasterN8]

I'm pretty sure that fire spirits aren't technically immune to fire.  The Elemental Aura power does not confer a corresponding immunity.

So unless flame aura (which they can't shut off) also hurts Fire spirits, we can conclude that auras specifically do not hurt the user.

[Reaver]

That's good to know!

[Hibiki54]

It makes no sense that something that is creating a damaging aura around itself should hurt itself with said aura.

[Reaver]

It makes no sense that something that is creating a damaging aura around itself should hurt itself with said aura.

Says the man that thinks a possessed person can fly, while a possessed chair just sits there


I guess its all in how we envision magic to work. Some have a Tolkien view of magic, with it all being whispers and rays of light. Some have a D&D view with glowie streamers and grand arcane words. And some have a different view.


Possession, to me is more of the old school view then the, I guess, new view (?). To be, the vessel is nothing. Its a pair of Socks. Or a Shirt. The spirit wears it while doing its thing, and in the end discards it. It doesn't care about the vessel, it's needs, or its safety any more then you do your socks. To me, the aura doesn't hurt the spirit because it's the origin of the aura. (just like I wouldn't make an adept roll to resist his own elemental effects). But the Vessel isn't the spirit Nor does it care about the vessel. And this opens up possibilities for options from the really darker side of Possession traditions.

Imagine your party invading the lair of mark that you are supposed to capture, you know that he has at least one guard with him so you come armed and ready for battle. Once you get tot he mark, you find him and his guard there, and combat starts to subdue the Mark and his guard. Suddenly the Sammy goes stiff as an aura appears around the Mark - He's awakened! And moments later the Sammy turns on the group - possessed by a fire spirit summoned by the Mark! (Aren't you happy now you advocated the Sammy dump stat both Intuition AND Willpower  )

The possessed Sammy bursts into flames and jumps on the mage. To everyone's horror you watch as both the mage AND the sammy's flesh starts start crisping and 'melting' from the aura effect..... Now the group really has a problem - how to save all members of the team and get their Mark. If they don't deal with the possessed Sammy soon they will kill the mage AND themselves!


**
But of course, like I quoted earlier, under possession it says that both the spirit and the vessel become "one single dual-natured entity", so yea. My take on a Possession spirit burning the vessel is probably (most likely) way off, And I wouldn't 'punish' a possessing mage PC in this way. They have enough problems to deal with. 

[Hibiki54]

I never said a possessed person can fly. I asked the question if they can fly or not. Get that right.