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About drain and thresholds

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Facemage

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« on: <07-06-15/0701:22> »
Hi all!

I made some research about dicerolling and thresholds. I get the following results:

If you want to be quite sure (>90%) that you success in the test, you need the following dice pools:

1: 6
2. 11
3: 15
4: 19
5: 22
6: 26
The left number is the threshold of the test. The right number is a needed dice pool. E.g. threshold (3) needs at least 15 dices. This is important, if you make even an elf mage/adept wih mentor spirit, you cannot be sure that you does not occasionally screw your team's plan (13 dices and threshold 3), if your mentor spirit's negative ability is very bad.

If you want to spam low drain (drain 2) spells, how many spells can you cast to be quite sure (>90%) that you are still below 3 boxes in stun monitor?
10: 8
11: 11
12: 16
13: 23
14: 32
15: 46

The left number is the resistance pool, the right number is number of spells which you can cast and still be >90% sure that you have not at least -1 penalty from spell casting.
So, the basic human mage with 11 resistance pool is bad at spamming. With an elf with charisma tradition (13 dices) it is possible.

If the drain is 3: the respective results are:
10: 2
11: 2
12: 3
13: 5
14: 6
15: 9
16: 12
17: 17
So, the spamming of drain 3 spells is not possible at all. How can you get constantly 17 dices in basic games? It never happens.

The result of the post is: you can cast only drain 2 spells quite safely.
« Last Edit: <07-06-15/0705:49> by Facemage »

Pinicles

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« Reply #1 on: <07-06-15/0834:43> »
 Mysad elf: Cha 8, Will 5, Heightened concern, Increase cha 8 (limited 3 Drain),  8+5+4= 17 dice drain resist

Facemage

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« Reply #2 on: <07-06-15/1252:21> »
Yeah, but can you upkeep it "constantly". After you have gone through three F9 wards and some very strong background counts you notice that you have to sustain 3 other spells to keep your friends alive. And still cast more spells... Moreover, typically you get some drain if you cast F8 increase charisma every morning.

I think that heightened concern/concentration is too strong power. I may ban it from our campaign.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #3 on: <07-07-15/1021:45> »
There are no certainties in life. If you want to be 90% sure of anything happening during any given Shadowrun, I suggest you stop playing cause those are some long odds ;)

Facemage

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« Reply #4 on: <07-14-15/0717:30> »
About heightened concern: In my version of shadow spells (a brand new version) the text of heightened concern is:
"The adept can ignore a single distraction while performing another task. This power negates a single situational modifier of a value of up to half (rounded up) of their Magic Attribute. It takes a Complex Action to activate and may be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic."

It is not possible with this ability to sustain one spell without penalties. You have to spend a complex action every time you do something different. So it is almost useless in fighting situations.

Top Dog

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« Reply #5 on: <07-14-15/0738:12> »
The situational penalty is the penalty from sustaining the spell. You cast the spell. Spend a complex action to activate the power. And hey presto, the penalty is negated.
It doesn't just apply to the next action, it applies to the penalty - which lasts as long as the spell lasts, so the power lasts that long as well.

As to drain, noone is spamming spells continuously since combat usually doesn't last long enough for that to be neccesary. But yes, if you cast a lot of spells, you're going to get drain occasionally - that's the point of drain! Remember, not resisting all the drain isn't always neccesary - getting a few points of stun damage every once in a while is survivable. There's ways to deal with it in the short term (stim patches) and they don't last too long. Occasionally you roll really bad in a situation where it does matter - which is why you have Edge.

Lastly, relatively low-power characters (IE, fresh out of chargen) are supposed to have drawbacks. You can get to around 13 there - enough to more-or-less safely cast drain 3 spells, and more than even odds to cast drain 4 spells. Higher drain spells are likely to make you take a hit, but they're probably not that big a deal.
After your first two initiations - a priority for many runners - you can get Channeling and get that to 15. A channeling focus will get it higher - to say, 18, and you can get an increase attribute spell (for willpower or your main spell) for 22. That's 1 spell to sustain, 29 karma in initiation and 9 karma and some nuyen in the focus. That's a few missions worth, sure, but certainly not prime runner territory yet. And that gives you 22 dice. Enough to cast drain 5 spells with relative impunity, and enough to have more then even odds to ignore drain 7 spells.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #6 on: <07-14-15/0754:21> »
The threat is reduced significantly through Limit-setting with reagents. Which is the best way to cast high-power spells that have no Force-dependent component (I.E., Heal and many Health spells aside from Increase Attribute spells; direct combat spells; pretty much all Illusion and Manipulation spells). Having a smaller radius is actually a benefit in a lot of circumstances.

Force only really matters for indirect combat spells and attribute-increases. If you have a good and steady income there's no reason not to pick up Feel My Hate and toss around reagented-Limit Stunballs or debuffs.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Facemage

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« Reply #7 on: <07-14-15/1141:44> »
What do developers mean by the phrase: "another task" ( it's not "another tasks")? Is the next run as a whole a single task (meaning you can ignore the sustaining penalty)? Or the next fight? I think that they are not. I think that casting a spell and then shooting a pistol are two different tasks. If you want to ignore a sustaining penalty, you need to activate it two times (and use two complex action). The power is still useful outside a combat (e.g. sneaking and negotiation tests). If it is possible to remove sustaining penalty as a whole, it is much more powerful than a sustaining focus and more expensive pq focused concentration. Why a mystic adept needs more free bonus spells compared to an ordinary mage? Mystic adept has already improved reflexes, and a typical mage need to almost always somehow sustain the respective spell.

I think that typical first foci are a sustaining focus and  a power focus. Because the total force of active foci is 6 (if your magic is 6) without addiction risks, there is no room for centering focus anymore. Moreover, you need 38 Karma (5-6 run) to build that setup. I think that  in the beginning a typical mage needs more spells, skills and maybe some attributes (str?), even more edge. It is not possible to buy 2 initiates and a centering focusby your first 40 karma. So this is not happening constantly. Moreover, if you do not rise at the same time your casting pool, the typical useful high force spells (e.g. Clout) may begin to miss your more powerful enemies.

It is possible indeed to achieve >17 drain pool before prime runner levels (the easiest way is maybe boost your both drain attributes by increase attribute spells (focused concentration and spirit of man may be needed), but in practice it never happens constantly.

The problem with the constant use of reagents is money. I think that if you have steady income and no need to buy foci, fake SINs, a good commlink etc, you should be a prime runner (with centering metamagic). Moreover, if the force of your Hot Potato spell is only 2 with 4 hits, it is quite easy to dispell (after one dispell, the hits of the spell is only 2 etc), or move away from the area.
« Last Edit: <07-14-15/1200:45> by Facemage »

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #8 on: <07-14-15/1547:39> »
Combat in this game is typically very fast. If you can make several opponents drop their guns with Hot Potato there is no reason to sustain it; they have just lost actions in picking them back up. Chances are you have just won the fight at this point since your guys are still armed and able to use Complex Actions on their turns. If they refuse to drop then they are sucking dice pool penalties and you spend your action shooting or tossing out other spells (Chaotic World or Swarm for more debuffs or damage spells). Practically speaking, Hot Potato is a great opening salvo that you can fire and forget and then next pass, if needed, cast a debuff through a sustaining focus or whatnot.

Not every opposing force has a mage. In my experience relatively few actually do. I don't worry much about dispelling since it doesn't come up very often. It really depends on the opponent group.
Playability > verisimilitude.

gilga

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« Reply #9 on: <07-14-15/2044:32> »
I typically boost both my drain attributes before summoning spirits that way chances for drain are low, when I roll a good mage even with penalties I make the summon.  16-19 drain pool is achievable fresh out of the door (and it actually does not grow that much afterwards...)

Facemage

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« Reply #10 on: <07-15-15/0242:38> »
In fact you should not cast Hot Potato with reagents. The drain is F-3 (I think that it should be F-2), Forces 5 and 6 are still easy to resist. So my example was bad. But if you cast Chaotic World with reagents (F2), the radius of the area is only 2 meters. It is not difficult to move away from that area. Walking is enough, so no moving penalties. Moreover, if you have steady income, your enemies should be elite forces. There should never be more than one elite soldier in any 4-5 meter radius. In gamemaster advice part: "Local guards know the terrain or layout of the place they are guarding. There may even be specific "chokepoints" or designated ambush points. These will be areas where intruders are "forced" to go, and give the defenders massive advantage in cover and firing positions". As a gm I would use this kind of "chokepoints" against reagents magicians (or massive use of grenades and rockets).

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #11 on: <07-15-15/0704:52> »
You're making a lot of assumptions about how difficult or not difficult it is to move out of an area.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Top Dog

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« Reply #12 on: <07-15-15/0745:41> »
It depends a lot on the situation. There are certainly times where 2 meters is plenty - if the enemy is in e.g. a corridor in cover (and there's not much other cover around), flushing them out of that with a boosted low-Force spell works like a charm. But if they're spread out in a large area, Force 2 isn't going to manage.

So while the reagent trick might work well for AoEs in many situations, there's certainly plenty of times where you have to suck up the drain to be effective.

And Facemage has a point - if the players are up against a well-designed defensive point, they're not going to be in an advantageous position.

Facemage

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« Reply #13 on: <07-15-15/0907:36> »
To be honest, I agree with both of you Top Dog and Whiskeyjack. The reagent trick is very effective to drop the effective drain to 2. And it works very well in many situations. So good that we even banned using reagents to set the limits in our games (houserule).  :)

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #14 on: <07-15-15/1020:45> »
I get you on the local guards thing. Definitely. I still think making a guard drop a gun, which they have to spend an action picking back up, or making them move, causing them to spend an action to get back in cover, is often pretty worthwhile.

I might tell my GM about some of those guard tactics things. I don't like it to be too easy.
Playability > verisimilitude.