[korusef]

Machine Sprite Diagnostic power is a great way how to get some bonus dice. It works on electronic devices.
How does it work on devices that could create personas though?

When you form a persona on a device, it is restarted. After the restart, the device is merged in your persona. Is the Sprite able to resume the Diagnostic power function?

[rumanchu]

I would say yes, if for no other reason than that all of the Complex Forms that target a "device" can also be used to target personas.  On top of that, a commlink is still a commlink when a persona is running on it.

[korusef]

I would say yes, if for no other reason than that all of the Complex Forms that target a "device" can also be used to target personas.  On top of that, a commlink is still a commlink when a persona is running on it.

• Complex Forms and Sprite powers are different things.
• Commlink with persona running on it does not have an icon. You cannot target it by Control Device action for example.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Machine Sprite Diagnostic power is a great way how to get some bonus dice. It works on electronic devices.
How does it work on devices that could create personas though?

When you form a persona on a device, it is restarted. After the restart, the device is merged in your persona. Is the Sprite able to resume the Diagnostic power function?

Just wait for Xenon... he'll be along it a while and explain it in a step by step manner so simply even I can understand it.

[Reaver]

Yes, he IS good at that.

But from another post, it may be a while for him to respond as i think he's on vacation (he mentioned being away from his books).

Hey, even Xenon deserves a holiday!

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Yes, he IS good at that.

But from another post, it may be a while for him to respond as i think he's on vacation (he mentioned being away from his books).

Hey, even Xenon deserves a holiday!

He can have a vacation after he gets done beating the developers with a phone book or a taser (his choice) until they release the books with rules that make sense. Without missing vast chunks of stuff & no Errata in sight.

[Reaver]

Yes, he IS good at that.

But from another post, it may be a while for him to respond as i think he's on vacation (he mentioned being away from his books).

Hey, even Xenon deserves a holiday!

He can have a vacation after he gets done beating the developers with a phone book or a taser (his choice) until they release the books with rules that make sense. Without missing vast chunks of stuff & no Errata in sight.

Lol, ok.

YOU tell that to Xenon's better half

If its anything like mine was before I escaped to freedom, I'll be waiting in the next town over.... i'm pretty sure that's when your feet will next touch the ground

[rumanchu]

I would say yes, if for no other reason than that all of the Complex Forms that target a "device" can also be used to target personas.  On top of that, a commlink is still a commlink when a persona is running on it.

• Complex Forms and Sprite powers are different things.
• Commlink with persona running on it does not have an icon. You cannot target it by Control Device action for example.

Considering that Sprite powers and Complex Forms are both examples of Resonance interacting with the Matrix, I personally didn't find it all that much of a logical stretch to apply the same rules to both, though a careful re-reading of all of all of the Sprite powers is making me question that premise.

As for the second point, that seems to be a fair point which seems to prevent Diagnostics from working on a device that has been incorporated into a persona.  (On the down side, this means that a TM with an echo allowing him to jump into drones will seemingly be unable to have their Sprites giving them any help via Diagnostics).

[korusef]

As for the second point, that seems to be a fair point which seems to prevent Diagnostics from working on a device that has been incorporated into a persona.  (On the down side, this means that a TM with an echo allowing him to jump into drones will seemingly be unable to have their Sprites giving them any help via Diagnostics).

There might be a special point for jumped-in devices, because those do not undergo restart, they are just merged with the persona. So if the Sprite is already doing Diagnostic it might continue doing so.

Relationship between personas and devices forming them is a bit murky.
This is how PAN are supposed to work: You form the PAN on your commlink|deck|RCC|dongle, but PANs can only be formed between devices and once you project your persona through the device, the device is restarted and its icon is replaced by your persona. Yet the PAN is still working.

[TheDai]

I would say No/Yes-ish to Personas.
Let's just all agree that Xenon is great and probably the only Person in this universe that has completely understood the Matrix.

Diagnostics creates a Teamwork Test for Repairing and Using.

Repairing:
When it comes to Matrix Damage, the Sprite can't help either way. Since it has to be offline it doesn't even exist for the Sprites eyes.
"normal damage" on a device yes - and probably even while you form a Persona with it. Although I do not know what a Sprite does, when you want to repair a cracked display on your Commlink.

Using:
Now it get's complicated.
If Personas = Yes! then this would create the following problem:
A TM and a Decker are best Friends, and so the TM lends the Decker his newly registered machine sprite. The Decker now uses Diagnostics on his own Cyberdeck and since he "uses" it all the time, every matrix action could be considered a Teamwork Test with the sprite. And now one does realize, why these two became best friends in the first place.

Because ... what does a Persona really do? Matrix-Actions - non stop Matrix Actions. It can't do anything else. And for that I believe Diagnostics wasn't designed.

[Xenon]

Yes, he IS good at that.

But from another post, it may be a while for him to respond as i think he's on vacation (he mentioned being away from his books).

Hey, even Xenon deserves a holiday!

He can have a vacation after he gets done beating the developers with a phone book or a taser (his choice) until they release the books with rules that make sense. Without missing vast chunks of stuff & no Errata in sight.

Lol, ok.

YOU tell that to Xenon's better half

If its anything like mine was before I escaped to freedom, I'll be waiting in the next town over.... i'm pretty sure that's when your feet will next touch the ground

lol

[rumanchu]

Here's my question (related to the topic at hand):  is there a specific rule in any of the books that specifically says that you cannot target a device (such as a commlink or cyberdeck) that has a persona loaded with something like Spoof or Control Device?

I see some things that imply that, but can find some specific instances in the rules where they either imply or outright say the opposite:

SR5, p.265: (under 'Complete Control'): "Remote Control is the result of the Control Device action..."   (under Control Override): "...if you issue a command through a control rig, attempts to maneuver at the same time using a remote control or manual control will be overridden."  This seems to say that someone *can* use the Control Device action when someone is jumped into a vehicle/drone, though it will nearly always be overridden by the rigger control.

Data Trails, p.153: "AIs are able to use the Control Device or Spoof action to order to have a device load the AI into an empty program slot." "When an AI is loaded onto a device, its persona automatically merges with the device icon..."  Now, nothing in those two bits says anything to counteract the premise that Control Device or Spoof require a persona-free device.  The *next* sentence, however, does: "If there is already a persona running on the device, the AIs persona forms separately from it."

I suppose that both of these can just be explained away as either inconsistencies in the rules (which wouldn't be unheard of) or as corner-case exceptions, which is why I'm trying to find a specific rule that says that actions that target devices (such as Spoof or Control Device) cannot be used against a device running a persona.

[Xenon]

Spoof Command (or Send Message) to the auto pilot of a vehicle will be pointless as long as someone is using manual control, control device or is jumped in. Also, if someone is sending conflicting orders to the auto pilot then the auto pilot will get confused and do nothing.

You cannot manually control a vehicle as long as someone else is using remote control or is jumped in.

You cannot Control Device a vehicle as long as someone else is remote controlling or if someone is jumped in.

You cannot Jump Into Rigged Device or use Rigger Jump In into a vehicle that someone else is already jumped into.

[rumanchu]

I'm just trying to figure out whether or not an action that targets a device is explicitly forbidden when the device in question has had its icon subsumed into the icon of a persona.  I know that using Control Device as an attempt to steer a vehicle that someone is jumped into will not work, but I *don't* know whether that's because the jumped in rigger control automatically overrides any lower-level attempt at control (as implied in 'Control Override' on p.265) or because the Control Device action cannot even be attempted in this situation due to the vehicle icon being replaced by the icon of the jumped-in persona.  (I'll point out that Jump Into Rigged Device specifically notes that it cannot be attempted if someone is already jumped in to the device in question which seems a bit excessive to point out if the rules already forbid me from using something that targets a device against a device hosting a persona).

Some examples/questions, just to clarify:

1) Johann Corp leaves his Nixdorf Sekretär in a cab.  Jimmy Decker finds it and wants to use Control Device to have the commlink send someone a message as Johann Corp.  Does the presence of the pre-loaded agent in the Sekretär (which means that the device icon is replaced by that of the agent's persona) prevent Jimmy from even trying?

2) Ronnie Rigger steals a company car from an Evo parking garage and jumps into it.  Sami Spider link-locks Ronnie, who is KOd by IC biofeedback.  Can Sami use Control Device to drive the car back to the parking garage, or does the fact that Ronnie's persona is still there (due to the link-lock) prevent this?

3) Goldenboy 2.0 (a metasapient AI) is floating around and notices Jimmy Decker's persona.  After checking Jimmy's icon out via Matrix Perception, it thinks that Jimmy's deck is pretty sweet and decides to make itself at home.  Can it use Control Device to load itself onto Jimmy's cyberdeck (assuming, of course, that the deck has a program slot available)?

4) Teddy Technomancer wants to help out his buddy Harry Hacker, so he sends his machine sprite Springy the Spring Sprite over to soup up Harry's deck.  Can Springy target Harry's deck with Diagnostics?

[Xenon]

I *don't* know whether that's because the jumped in rigger control automatically overrides any lower-level attempt at control (as implied in 'Control Override' on p.265) or because the Control Device action cannot even be attempted in this situation due to the vehicle icon being replaced by the icon of the jumped-in persona. 

It cannot be done because of control order.
If a matrix action require a device icon that is not there because it is merged into a persona icon then it can also not be done because that.

1) Johann Corp leaves his Nixdorf Sekretär in a cab.  Jimmy Decker finds it and wants to use Control Device to have the commlink send someone a message as Johann Corp.

Johann Corp will still have his persona formed on the commlink even if he left it in a cab and Jimmy Decker will still have his persona formed on his cyberdeck. Its not Jimmy Decker's commlink just because he physically touch it and Johann Corp will not suddenly be dumped from the matrix just because he doesn't physically touch his commlink.

If Jimmy Decker want to send a message while impersonating Johann Corp then Jimmy Decker can mark Johann Corp and successfully use Spoof Command.

2) Ronnie Rigger steals a company car from an Evo parking garage and jumps into it.

Ronnie Rigger does not own the car just because he is physically sitting in it. To jump into a device you don't own you need permission in the form of 3 marks and successfully use the Jump into Rigged Device matrix action. Either the legit owner or someone acting as the legit owner need to invite Ronnie Rigger to place three of his marks on the vehicle or Ronnie Rigger need a persona with an attack or sleaze rating and then either force or trick three of his marks onto the device icon by bending the matrix.

Sami Spider link-locks Ronnie....

Sami Spider first have to leave his host and then try to Spot Ronnie Rigger out on the Grid. Most spiders will probably not leave the safety of the host to attack icons out on the grid (they also doesn't have jurisdiction outside of the corporate host; his attack will generate overwatch score and within an hour GOD will converge on him).

...who is KOd by IC biofeedback.

IC cannot attack an icon that is not inside the same host as the IC. Ronnie Rigger is out on the Grid, jumped into a company car...

Can Sami use Control Device to drive the car back to the parking garage, or does the fact that Ronnie's persona is still there (due to the link-lock) prevent this?

You cannot Control Device a vehicle as long as someone else is remote controlling or if someone is jumped in.

Sami Spider can stop link locking Ronnie which will cause unconscious Ronnie to be dumped from the matrix and then remote control or order the auto pilot to drive home.

3) Goldenboy 2.0 (a metasapient AI) is floating around and notices Jimmy Decker's persona...

I need to read up on AIs before I can answer this.

4) Teddy Technomancer wants to help...

I need to read up on sprites before I can answer this (but if I recall correctly the sprite can help Harry when repairing his physical deck but not when Harry's virtual persona is hacking the Matrix).