[rumanchu]

(I am cutting a ton of very informative stuff from you out of this reply because this one particular bit really goes to the crux of the matter)

If Jimmy Decker want to send a message while impersonating Johann Corp then Jimmy Decker can mark Johann Corp and successfully use Spoof Command.

Can he?  Spoof Command (SR5, p.242): "You spoof a device's owner's identity, making the device think that your command is a legitimate one from its owner. <stuff about marks, etc, snipped> This trick only works on devices and agents, not IC, sprites, hosts, personas, or any other icons."  Can Jimmy Decker use Spoof Command in this instance? If he *can*, then why can't he get the requisite marks on the commlink directly and use Control Device to send a message?

If he can't while Johann Corp has his persona loaded, then what about when Johann moves his persona to another commlink (perhaps he thinks that he left his Sekretär in his summer home in Prague and didn't bother trying to actually locate his despite being the owner and finding the physical location of his property is a trivial matter), leaving Alistair the Agent running?  Assuming that Jimmy has the requisite mark on Johann (and assuming that Johann is actually the owner), he can certainly use Spoof Command on Alistair in order to have Alistair send a message on behalf of Johann, but Jimmy wants to skip the middle man and send it himself.  Can he use Spoof Command on the commlink?  (Yes, I realize that the agent acts with the authority of the owner while loaded and could most be Spoofed to have the commlink send a message *as* Johann).

If not (because the commlink is under the umbrella of Alistair the Agent's persona), then does this mean that someone who loads an agent onto their rig-equipped vehicle need to unload the agent before they can jump into it?  What about when they want to let their rigger buddy (who they've Invited three marks from on said vehicle) jump in?

Yes, some of these examples are extremely corner-case or obtuse, but I'm legitimately trying to get to the bottom of this because my group has been (apparently) playing wrong since SR5 came out (and the way that my group has been playing has seemed extremely logical to us).

[Kincaid]

Heading to the gym on my lunch hour, so I can't get to all of them, but in regards to the AI question:

Assuming the AI is looking to set up a Reset Ownership action, then yes.  An AI can use either Spoof Command or Control Device to hop into a device that's capable of acting as a home.  In this scenario Goldenboy 2.0 and Johnny Decker would almost certainly enter what I called "dogfight mode" back in the editing stage--they can only effectively target one another and the Reset Ownership action is an Extended Test, so Goldenboy 2.0 probably wants to make sure someone isn't Data Spiking him mindlessly while he performs it.  Of course, Johnny Decker is still in possession of the physical deck itself, so Goldenboy 2.0 may want to think this one through a bit.

[Xenon]

If Jimmy Decker want to send a message while impersonating Johann Corp then Jimmy Decker can mark Johann Corp and successfully use Spoof Command.

Can he?

With a mark on Johann Corp, Jimmy Decker can Spoof Command to a drone that Johann Corp is the legit matrix owner of (or act as the owner), sending an instruction to the on board auto pilot... impersonating as Johann Corp.

If the test is successful then the drone will think the instruction came directly from its owner and unless it get a conflicting order and unless someone remote control or jump into the drone it will carry out the instruction on its next action.

It make no sense to Spoof a command to Johann Corp acting as Johann Corp.....?

[rumanchu]

Assuming the AI is looking to set up a Reset Ownership action, then yes.  An AI can use either Spoof Command or Control Device to hop into a device that's capable of acting as a home.

Can an AI do this while a persona is loaded on the device (it seems so since the text specifically says what happens when an AI is loaded onto a device with another persona running on it)?  If so, is this a specific exception for AIs, or can anyone use Control Device or Spoof Command in order to cause a device capable of loading programs to load a particular program while a persona is running on that device?

Of course, Johnny Decker is still in possession of the physical deck itself, so Goldenboy 2.0 may want to think this one through a bit.

Yeah, it's not the smartest plan of action for Goldenboy 2.0 to take.

With a mark on Johann Corp, Jimmy Decker can Spoof Command to a drone that Johann Corp is the legit matrix owner of (or act as the owner), sending an instruction to the on board auto pilot... impersonating as Johann Corp.

If the test is successful then the drone will think the instruction came directly from its owner and unless it get a conflicting order and unless someone remote control or jump into the drone it will carry out the instruction on its next action.

It make no sense to Spoof a command to Johann Corp acting as Johann Corp.....?

Sorry, I wasn't clear as to my intention with the example.  By "send a message" I was *literally* talking about sending the 2076 equivalent of a text message or email (via Send Message) since that was one of the few actions that I could think of that you would do with a commlink that:

A) would possibly be considered "unique" to that commlink (though I suppose that any unique identifiers would be tied to the persona rather than the device...which makes me wonder how someone would go about using Send Message while posing as someone else)
B) wouldn't be associated with a file of some sort (since you would most likely use Edit File to do something like add an entry to someone's calendar or pull up their contacts)

At this point, though, I feel like I'm just making you go over basically the same thing over and over again, so I'll just assume that any of the corner-cases that seem like exceptions that disprove the rule are just specific exceptions and leave it at that.

[Xenon]

...what about when Johann moves his persona to another commlink (perhaps he thinks that he left his Sekretär in his summer home in Prague and didn't bother trying to actually locate his despite being the owner and finding the physical location of his property is a trivial matter)

He need to reboot both his Sekretär and his other commlink if he want to move his persona.

Assuming that Jimmy has the requisite mark on Johann

Jimmy will no longer have a mark on Johann after Johann reboot. Jimmy need to spot and mark Johann's persona formed on the other commlink.

he can certainly use Spoof Command on Alistair

Yes. If Jimmy have a mark on Johann then Jimmy can -while impersonating as Johann- instruct Johann's Agent running on the Sekretär (to for example run a matrix search or some other action that is not labeled as owner only). Jimmy does this with Spoof Command.

in order to have Alistair send a message on behalf of Johann

That doesn't make sense....
If Jimmy want to send a message as Johann (for example to the auto pilot of Johann's drone) then all Jimmy need is a mark on Johann. Then Jimmy use Spoof Command to the drone. If successful the drone will think the command came directly from its owner.

...but Jimmy wants to skip the middle man and send it himself.

That is kinda what Spoof Command is designed for....

If Jimmy have a mark on Johann then Jimmy can Spoof Commands, impersonating as Johann. For example by sending a message to Johann's drone to fly 200 meters up in the sky or sending a message to Johann's agent on the Sekretär to search the matrix for some obscure topic. If successful the drone or the agent will carry out the instruction on its next action pass.

Can he use Spoof Command on the commlink

That doesn't make sense.

If you want to send a command to Johann's drone or agent as if the command come from Johann then Jimmy need a mark on Johann and then just send the instruction directly to the drone or agent, impersonating Johann. If successful then the drone or agent will think the message came from Johann's persona, not Jimmy's. Jimmy don't need a mark on the drone or agent.

[Xenon]

Sorry, I wasn't clear as to my intention with the example.  By "send a message" I was *literally* talking about sending the 2076 equivalent of a text message or email (via Send Message) since that was one of the few actions that I could think of that you would do with a commlink that:

A) would possibly be considered "unique" to that commlink (though I suppose that any unique identifiers would be tied to the persona rather than the device...which makes me wonder how someone would go about using Send Message while posing as someone else)....

If I recall correctly Send Message is "Owner only". Your combined steam/Facebook/LinkedIn/Google/xBox 360/ICQ/Spotify/Skype account is your persona. Not your current commlink. You have the same "account" no matter if you base your persona on your Sekretär or your other commlink.

If a hacker have a mark on you then he can Spoof Commands with your persona "fingerprint". This is probably as close as you get to the Owner only Send Message matrix command.

A technomancer might puppeteer a persona to Send Message, but the owner will be aware that he was forced and what he was forced to do (similar to as if someone used Control Actions).

[rumanchu]

EDIT:

Thanks to the long-suffering responses from Xenon and Kincaid, I concede the point that things that target "devices" cannot target a device that has a persona loaded even without the presence of a clear-cut statement in the rulebook.

Any other questions or confusions that I have right now aren't relevant to the topic at hand, so I will move them elsewhere.

Sorry for any derailment caused by my previous line of questioning.

[Kincaid]

Assuming the AI is looking to set up a Reset Ownership action, then yes.  An AI can use either Spoof Command or Control Device to hop into a device that's capable of acting as a home.

Can an AI do this while a persona is loaded on the device (it seems so since the text specifically says what happens when an AI is loaded onto a device with another persona running on it)?  If so, is this a specific exception for AIs, or can anyone use Control Device or Spoof Command in order to cause a device capable of loading programs to load a particular program while a persona is running on that device?

Hopping into a device that's already being used to generate a persona is something that's AI-specific.  Anyone who can get marks can use Spoof Command.  The snag to using Spoof Command to force someone to swap programs is that it cannot target personae, only devices and agents.  The device icon for the cyberdeck isn't there--it's subsumed when the cyberdeck is used to form a persona--so you have nothing to target.

[korusef]

A technomancer might puppeteer a persona to Send Message, but the owner will be aware that he was forced and what he was forced to do (similar to as if someone used Control Actions).

Can you use Resonance Veil so that the persona won't notice the Puppeteer?

[Reaver]

No.

The owner still knows he was forced to take an action he did not want to do. (In this case: send a message he did not want to originally send)

[Hibiki54]

EDIT:

Thanks to the long-suffering responses from Xenon and Kincaid, I concede the point that things that target "devices" cannot target a device that has a persona loaded even without the presence of a clear-cut statement in the rulebook.

Any other questions or confusions that I have right now aren't relevant to the topic at hand, so I will move them elsewhere.

Sorry for any derailment caused by my previous line of questioning.

That is incorrect. Because if you have two Deckers in a Matrix Duel, that means you cannot target each other with any Attack or Sleaze action. This would also make Technomancers immune to any Attack or Sleaze action because they themselves are a Persona.

[Xenon]

I don't follow. Why can't you target a Persona with for example a Data Spike?

[Hibiki54]

I'm replying to the poster's statement. He is indicating, based on your responses, that complex forms or actions that target a device cannot target icons that have a persona. That is 100% incorrect.

[Xenon]

Ahh.

I think he was talking about matrix actions that only target a device. Like Control Device and Jump Into Rigged Device. That they will only target a device icon - and not a persona icon (or a device that currently don't have a device icon because someone is jumped in or formed a persona on it).

complex forms with target device will target on both device icons and persona icons (agent, auto pilot, sprite, IC, living persona and device based persona - and i guess AI count as a persona as well).

Many attack and sleaze matrix actions (like Brute Force, Hack on the Fly, Data Spike etc) work on both device icons and persona icons.

[rumanchu]

Ahh.

I think he was talking about matrix actions that only target a device. Like Control Device and Jump Into Rigged Device. That they will only target a device icon - and not a persona icon (or a device that currently don't have a device icon because someone is jumped in or formed a persona on it).

I was, though it wasn't exactly clear in the post in question.