[adzling]

So I have been spending some time to help my group optimize their character builds given the new rules released recently and their character's goals/ concept.

One thing that keeps coming up is the must have utility of JoaT from Run Faster.

For 2 Karma at chargen you get a 1 karma discount from all skills lower than 6 raised/ bought post chargen.

Because almost all of our characters (except the hyper-specialized mage) purchase many ancillary skills after chargen at low ranks (below 6) this has become the go to quality for everyone on the group.

It's particularly powerful when you consider you can just buy off the skill for 4 karma post-chargen when you have accumulate enough low level, ancillary skills and want to start raising those primary skills.

It's just so amazing from a karma efficiency standpoint it has become a must have.

thoughts?

[Hibiki54]

It also makes it harder to get skills above 6 post CharGen. It's great when you need some misc skills so you won't default, but it sucks when you want to increase the dice pools on your primaries.

[Kincaid]

Borderline must have.  I love this quality because I love characters with a wide array of capabilities more than I do hyper-specialized characters.  However, one of the pieces of advice you see constantly getting doled out on various forums is that you have to specialize in Shadowrun; generalists aren't good.  I don't totally subscribe to this, but there's some truth to it.  Characters with narrow (mechanically-speaking) specialties like mages and deckers can't really take this because they have skills that essentially have to get above 6 once play starts.  Gun-based characters may or may not a problem with this quality based on the weapon of choice--mode of fire makes a big difference here.  Mundane melee characters are in a similar boat as deckers and mages.

But yeah, it's great.  I'm looking to stack it with Linguist and learning stimulus nanites to know all the things.

[adzling]

Yeah but my point is Hibiki that with it only cost 4 karma to buy off post chargen you can get it and save a bunch of karma then buy it off cheaply when your reader to go past 5.

Yeah Kincaid I hear you, and our characters are optimized for their primary roles.
What JoaT gives them is the ability to round out their character very cheaply.
This is especially powerful if your build is Attributes A as you only need a couple of points in the skills tied to your high stats to have decent dice pools of 9+.
Our Technomancer is considering using it in conjunction with Renraku Tradejack and a machine sprite to be the ultimate JoaT.
she is getting 13 dice in any activesoft she uses.
With rating 1 in almost every skill in game she doesn't need to default, many of which can take advantage of a machine sprite in the tech being used with the skill resulting in non activesoft skills at rating 1 having dice pools of @10 dice!

But yeah, it's great.  I'm looking to stack it with Linguist and learning stimulus nanites to know all the things.

eek!

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

I know you can "buy off" Negative Qualities... but you can "buy off" Positive Qualities too??? Like you get the 4 Karma back you spent on it? As someone else mentioned... their are certain Characters that don't really benefit from this Quality. But others who only need to really focus on 1-2 skills to raise above 6 can definitely benefit from the bonus of having a secondary skill backdrop.

[Kincaid]

You cannot, by RAW, buy off positive qualities, only negative ones.  This would be totally broken if you allowed that.

[Hobbes]

The main issue I run into with JoaT is that at chargen it's easy to grab several skills at low level.  Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time.  So you're channeled into focusing on a couple of skills for most characters per period of down time.  So if you've got a decent list of skills you want to grab a point or two in you wind up waiting for a few runs before you can just grab that first point.

So you're either saving a handful of Karma and not having those filler lowbie skills.  Or you're blowing off potential savings from JoaT. 

Otherwise, yes, fantastic quality for many runners as you're typically spreading out, not continuously raising one set of skills.

[Jayde Moon]

Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time

Eek!  I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh

[FST_Gemstar]

My favorite for A attributes characters too.

[adzling]

ahh good point thanks for reminding me of that!
Then yes I agree JoaT is fine as is.
I will need to inform my players ;-)

You cannot, by RAW, buy off positive qualities, only negative ones.  This would be totally broken if you allowed that.

[FasterN8]

It's kind of a moot point for JoaT since it's not a neg quality, but you can't just buy off negative qualities automatically either.  You have to first get GM permission and then meet any stipulated requirements they set forth. (CRB pg 106)  If JoaT could be bought off, then GMs would be operating well within their duties to make it a pretty tough quality to get rid of.

On top of that, I believe the rule in Missions is anything that is "with GM permission" is not allowed unless explicitly allowed (like Exceptional attribute), so buying off neg qualities at all is not permitted.  (Yay for Allergen Tolerance!)

[Jack_Spade]

Well, JoaT doesn't seem to affect skill groups. That would be a way to avoid the penalties. But usually you'll start to rise attributes when you've reached the discount limit or invest in specialization. 

[Hobbes]

Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time

Eek!  I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh

Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT.  At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each   

With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime.  Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive.  But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.

I have to think at most tables the limit is completely ignored, overlooked, or forgotten. 

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time

Eek!  I completely forgot about this while advancing my Missions PC... ugh

Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT.  At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each   

With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime.  Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive.  But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.

I have to think at most tables the limit is completely ignored, overlooked, or forgotten.

Limit is Core & JoaT is Run Faster... doubtful that the cart came before the horse here

[FasterN8]

Once play starts you're limited to Logic / 2 skills per period of down time

Pretty sure the only reason that limit is in the game is JoaT.  At 6 Karma per run, Logic/2 skills isn't much of a limitation, unless new skills only cost you 1 karma each   

With JoaT you could conceivably walk out of chargen with 7 Karma, get 6 from your first run, then buy 13 new skills at 1 during your first downtime.  Not what 13 skills at 1 you're picking up that would be so disruptive.  But really, only reason I can think of for that limit to be in place is to slow down JoaT.

Huh.  I never thought of that as a limitation, but more of a special concession for training skills due to the long training times required at high skill levels.   They probably wanted to let people train multiple skills at a time, but didn't want to say "as many as you want simultaneously".  Logic/2 probably seemed like a good compromise.