[Lodestar]

Spirit of Earth (Force 6)

Body is F+4 and Essence F.

Body 10, Essence 6

It has Materialization, and what that means? Let's see:

Materialization (pg 398)

Magicians and many critters can leave their bodies
and project themselves into the astral plane. Likewise,
many astral critters can project themselves into the
physical world and form a temporary “body” to inhabit
while they’re here. This lets them interact with, and affect,
physical beings. Additionally, they gain Immunity to
Normal Weapons while materialized. Materializing and
dematerializing to return to the astral plane both require
a Complex Action.

...so we check the next:

Immunity 397

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance
to a certain type of attack or affliction. Effectively, the
critter has a Hardened Armor rating equal to twice its
Essence against that particular kind of damage (see
Hardened Armor, p. 397). This means that if the modified
Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the
Immunity’s rating, then the attack automatically does
no damage. If the modified DV exceeds the Immunity
rating, perform a Damage Resistance test as normal,
adding the Immunity rating to the dice pool for this test.
Additionally, half (rounded up) of the Immunity rating
counts as automatic hits on this test.

...and finally:

Hardened Armor 397

There’s Armor, and then there’s Armor. This is the latter.
This power provides its rating in Armor, and functions
just like the Armor power. It differs from the Armor
power as follows.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than
the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack
does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test
for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was
made in the first place.
If the modified Damage Value of an attack is greater
than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP),
then perform a Damage Resistance test for the critter as
normal. Additionally, half of the Hardened Armor rating
(modified by AP, rounded up) counts as automatic extra
hits on this test.

So, the Earth Spirit has

Body 10

Hardened Armor 12

To a total of 22 Armor (does it add like this?) in which it ignores the first 6 damage (automatic net hits to resist damage), that if the damage overcomes 22.

Alright. Not easy to get it back to earth plane.

Sure that the damage vs hardened armor only considers the hardened armor, right?

So, an Ares Desert Strike with 13P AP-4 is not being compared to a 22 armor, but to a 12 hardened armor to overcome, so damage can finally be resisted, right?

Just trying to understand.

Chummer 1 with an Ares Predator V shoots the Earth Spirit, 2 net hits. 10P adding AP -1. 12 HA becomes 11 and 11 > 10, so Chummer 1 fails to roll a chance to damage.

Chummer 2 with an Ares Desert Strike shoots the same spirit, 2 net hits. 15P adding AP -4. 12 HA becomes 8 and 8 < 15, so Chummer 2 gets to roll the damage.

Since the HA is 8 now, it automatically resists 4 damage (right?).

The 15P becomes 11P.

Now to the resist damage (and final) part:

The spirit has 18 armor (reduced from 22 because of the AP -4 (right?)) to resist 11P.

And that's it!

Did I fail in any part?

Thanks for the help, Chummers!

And for an extra:

Can you guys comment on what spirits you prefer (and why).

Do you guys think it's a hard thing to deal with spirits? For example, a Force 6 Earth Elemental is a critical choice against a group only armed with heavy pistols at the most?

What do you guys think about the public awareness of spirits in society and how the common folk should react to such an event of seeing a manifested spirit?

And how to plot a magical game while not isolating the Mage/Shaman as the lone protagonist? How to add the rest of the group in such a bizarre scenario?

And sorry for the long post.

[Kiirnodel]

To be clear your dice pools and explanations all seem to be correct with one exception.

The Body 10, is not also armor. You do add it to armor to determine your damage resistance dice pool, but it is not itself actually armor.

So your spirit of earth has 12 HA, and 10 Body. Which means 12 armor for calculations based on armor (only). It rolls 22 dice (before AP) for damage resistance since that is Armor+Body.

[Jack_Spade]

It's not that hard to deal with a spirit:
- Geek the mage and the called help vanishes (That is the most economic tactic)
- Get APDS and use the Bulls Eye trick to increase AP
- Use a package of three Stun grenades for 20S AP 6 to convince the spirit to go home (expensive but effective)
- Get a Defiance Ex Taser: 9S AP 5 usually overcomes the armor and does a good bit of damage
- Run away

[Hibiki54]

Force 6 Earth Spirit
Body = Force + 4 = 10
Essence = 6
Actual Armor (vs magical attacks) = 0
Immunity to Normal Weapons (Hardened Armor) = Essence x 2 = 12
Damage Resistance Dice Pool vs Magic Based Attacks = 10 (Body) or 6 (Willpower)
Damage Resistance Dice Pool vs Normal Weapons = 10 (Body) + 12 (Hardened Armor) = 22 + (6 Automatic Hits)

Runner A attacks the Earth Spirit with a Light Pistol that deals 7P and 0 AP. He gets 5 net hits for a total of 12P. The Spirit has Hardened Armor of 12 so the attack bounces off.

Runner B attacks the Earth Spirit with the same weapon and gets 6 net hits for a total DV of 13P.  Since the DV exceeded the Hardened Armor value, the Spirit will gain Automatic Hits equal to half it's Hardened Armor for a total of 6 which will bring the DV of the attack down to 7P. Then the Spirit will roll Body (10) + Hardened Armor Value (12) to soak 7P damage. It will more than likely succeed.

Runner C, seeing their failures, pulls out an AK-97, sets it to full Rock and Roll and lays down a barrage on the Spirit. The AK-97 deals a base 10P with a -2 AP, but he only manages to score 1 net hit when he glitched hit roll and his gun jammed. Normally 11P would bounce off the Hardened Armor, but with a -2 AP the Hardened Armor Value is dropped to 10, which means his 1 net hit for 11P goes through. However, the Spirit gains 5 Automatic hits from Hardened Armor bringing down the DV to 6P and will roll 20 dice instead of 22 (because of the -2 AP) to soak damage. It will more than likely to succeed.

Runner D does some Jazz and goes all in. He jams home a clip of APDS in his Colt Inception. With a base damage of 10P he gains 6 net hits for a total of 16P. His AP, however, normally -1 but deals -5 with the addition of APDS. The Spirit's Hardened Armor is reduced to 7, but it still gains 4 net hits because odd numbers are rounded up specifically for this purpose. With a modified DV of 12P after automatic hits, the Spirit will roll Body (10) + Hardened Armor (7) for a total of 17 dice after AP.  The Spirit will more than likely take a good chunk of damage after such an attack.

[Lodestar]

@Kiirnodel

Yeah. I had my doubts on that. Thanks, chummer. And I also learned that Body does not decreases because of AP (right?).


@Jack_Spades

Still, Stun damage. Doesn't Stun damage have to fill the Stun Box and then go Lethal box? Wouldn't still require a lot of damage to handle with the spirit? (even though it becomes handleable, hehehe).

For example, A spirit as a total of 11 Hit boxes and 10 hit boxes for Stun. You deal Stun damage to a point you fill the whole 10 hit boxes. What happens? the Spirit vanishes or the next Stun damage becomes automatically lethal (P)?

I'm starting to like more those tasers.

I have a misterious NPC that usually only appears in the media, and he is a "super-hero", but with nothing out of the common, no cyberwares, no adept powers, no nothing. Just a guy in a riot armor, black cape, a great axe for a melee weapon and a Defiance Ex Taser for a range weapon.

If you ask me why I did that NPC, I would say I did not just for a ironical/comical part in the game, but a way to get the interest of the characters to wonder how such a guy is dealing with the Mafia and the Organized Crime all by himself.

And if you ask me the secret of the NPC; well, he's just a nut job getting in the cat fights with lowlife criminals connected to major things in anyother way.

@Hibiki54

Is a flamethrower, a P type of spell, a "Magic Based Attack"?

It may seem stupid, but... The game states that M type of spell gets Spirits even in the astral, why P type doesn't.

Thanks for the examples, chummer!

[Xenon]

You should probably also include runner E that cast a spell.


Physical spells cannot be cast on the Astral plane......

[Lodestar]

@Xenon I know. So it follows the same rules for a normal weapon, right?

[Reaver]

Any magical attack;

Be it manabolt to acid bomb ignore a spirit's hardened armor. (Make sure you use the spell for the plane the spirit is currently on!)
An adept with killing hands also ignores the gardened armor.



Spirits CAN be a problem for most tables if the GM gets carried away. Heard some nasty stories on these very forums of GMs using things like force 10+ spirits. Which gets a little insane for most groups with out some pre-planning. But they are not insurmountable. Just use your head and if anything, under shoot when using spirits.


(On the plus side, you had that mostly right and even followed how to get there, no easy feat with the CRB's organization)

[Top Dog]

@Kiirnodel

Yeah. I had my doubts on that. Thanks, chummer. And I also learned that Body does not decreases because of AP (right?).

Yup. Once armor reaches 0 from AP, you just roll Body alone - that doesn't get reduced further.

@Jack_Spades

Still, Stun damage. Doesn't Stun damage have to fill the Stun Box and then go Lethal box? Wouldn't still require a lot of damage to handle with the spirit? (even though it becomes handleable, hehehe).

For example, A spirit as a total of 11 Hit boxes and 10 hit boxes for Stun. You deal Stun damage to a point you fill the whole 10 hit boxes. What happens? the Spirit vanishes or the next Stun damage becomes automatically lethal (P)?

Spirits which have their Stun track filled get disrupted (sending them back to the metaplanes, painfully). Works just as well as Physical damage.

Any magical attack;

Be it manabolt to acid bomb ignore a spirit's hardened armor. (Make sure you use the spell for the plane the spirit is currently on!)
An adept with killing hands also ignores the gardened armor.

Weapon Foci are also considered magical attacks and ignore the immunity.

Mana spells always work against spirits, by the way, no matter if they're on the astral or not (since you can cast those on the astral and on the physical plane).

[Xenon]

@Xenon I know. So it follows the same rules for a normal weapon, right?

Physical spells (and weapon focus and killing hands etc.) ignore immunity to normal weapons just like Mana spells. Normal weapons does not ignore immunity to normal weapons and have to go through hardened armor.

Mana spells (and weapon focus and killing hands etc.) can be used while you use Astral Perception or Astral Projection to fight a spirit that currently don't have a physical form. They can also be used on the Physical Plane (ie when you don't use Astral Perception or Astral Projection) to fight a spirit that currently have a physical form.

Physical spells cannot be cast on the Astral Plane, but they can be used to ignore immunity to normal weapons on the Physical Plane  (just like mana spells and weapon focus and killing hands etc).

[Hibiki54]

Spirits CAN be a problem for most tables if the GM gets carried away. Heard some nasty stories on these very forums of GMs using things like force 10+ spirits. Which gets a little insane for most groups with out some pre-planning. But they are not insurmountable. Just use your head and if anything, under shoot when using spirits.

There were a lot of Runner deaths and burned Edge at this past Origins Game Fair because of high force spirits.

[Reaver]

Spirits CAN be a problem for most tables if the GM gets carried away. Heard some nasty stories on these very forums of GMs using things like force 10+ spirits. Which gets a little insane for most groups with out some pre-planning. But they are not insurmountable. Just use your head and if anything, under shoot when using spirits.

There were a lot of Runner deaths and burned Edge at this past Origins Game Fair because of high force spirits.

Yep. A fifference in force of only 1 or 2 makes the difference between "challenging" and "Party wipe".

Missions are hard cause you never really know what is sitting at the table so the writer choses a force and runs with it... the GM has to judge if its going to be too powerful or not, but in missions play, it can be hard to judge the right power level in their limited window for play.

[Overbyte]

Chummer 2 with an Ares Desert Strike shoots the same spirit, 2 net hits. 15P adding AP -4. 12 HA becomes 8 and 8 < 15, so Chummer 2 gets to roll the damage.

Since the HA is 8 now, it automatically resists 4 damage (right?).

This is the part I wondered about.
Does the spirit get 6 automatic successes from 12 Hard Armor? Or does it get only 4 since the attack had AP?
Is there a definitive reference/example on this rule?

[Dal Thrax]

It's not that hard to deal with a spirit:
- Geek the mage and the called help vanishes (That is the most economic tactic)
- Get APDS and use the Bulls Eye trick to increase AP
- Use a package of three Stun grenades for 20S AP 6 to convince the spirit to go home (expensive but effective)
- Get a Defiance Ex Taser: 9S AP 5 usually overcomes the armor and does a good bit of damage
- Run away

Monofiliment Whip 12P AP 8 maybe?  Just be sure your magician has a spirit using the guard power on you when you pull it out.

[Top Dog]

Chummer 2 with an Ares Desert Strike shoots the same spirit, 2 net hits. 15P adding AP -4. 12 HA becomes 8 and 8 < 15, so Chummer 2 gets to roll the damage.

Since the HA is 8 now, it automatically resists 4 damage (right?).

This is the part I wondered about.
Does the spirit get 6 automatic successes from 12 Hard Armor? Or does it get only 4 since the attack had AP?
Is there a definitive reference/example on this rule?

Automatic successes are calculated after AP is subtracted; so in this case, 4. This is part of the rules on Hardened Armor on p. 397.