[Gloubi]

Hi all!

I have a bit of an issue (I'm a bit new to SR, please keep this in mind )

One of my players let me know that with a base station and 3 antennas, it should be possible to find out the position of any device in wireless-mode, like in real life with mobile phones. Such a system can be made in real life for very low costs. One just need 3 antennas, and make one's own base-station(link). This player is into this kind of stuff, so I'll assume it is indeed possible

So he wants to put this system in place in a safe-house, so that he will be able to know the position of any wireless commlink in the vicinity.
(NB: There's another filtering layer after this - I'll skip details - which essentially allows to identify friendly devices from unknown ones)

Now the problem is that this triangulation happens at a hardware level, so there's no way of hiding it whatsoever- the only solution for a device not be detected and located would be for it to remain offline. This whole things makes sense technically, and it's clever, but it raises a bunch of issues...

Since it's inexpensive, I will assume that all places remotely secure would run the same system.
So for starters, this means that it will be impossible for any spy drone from ever staying undetected, which could be problematic for the rigger in the group.
It also means that for any kind of stealth missions, *all* devices carried by players will always have to be kept offline at all times.

I've discussed with the player, and came up with 3 ways of dealing with this so far:

1. Banning this, because fluff. I could say that there are a lot of technological abstractions in SR (e.g: there's no lag on the matrix), so I could say that in 2072, there's a way for devices to work-around triangulation. I'd rather avoid this though, because it's an imaginative idea from the player.

2. Come up with some fluff to make it just less powerful (allowing devices running silently to be harder to be detected at a hardware level).

3. Do nothing about it. The players will have access to such tech, and so will everybody else (the rigger in the group might cry though lol)

What do you think, and how would you go around solving this?

Thanks in advance!

[korusef]

No need to ban this, just let him deal with the consequences. Some specific points:

• There are indeed devices that are designed (military) to beat the triangulation. One common technique is to pseudo randomly rotate frequencies so your signal looks like random noise.
• There are tons of wireless devices in SR5. Simple pen could have 3-5 RIFD wireless chips just after you buy it. So people will have to basically strip down.
• This is the same situation as accessing are that is under camera surveillance ... provide your own feed.

[Novocrane]

The Matrix is a ubiquitous ad-hoc wireless mesh network. The “wireless mesh” part means that every device makes contact with every other device it can. “Ad-hoc” means that this is done on the fly.

When information is routed between devices, it is non-sequentially sliced into a number of pieces and sent to the recipient via multiple paths; this makes it almost impossible to intercept the traffic except within Signal range of the sender or the receiver, the only places the information is in one readable piece. The routing functions of a device are handled by a separate component of hardware than the other functions of the device. This makes the routing process invisible to the user, and allows the device’s node to connect to the Matrix even when it is operating in Hidden mode.

Does this change anything?

If he wants to triangulate with only core gear, the most straightforward way would be to cover an area in radio signal scanners.

Bug scanner: Also called a radio signal scanner, this device locates and locks in wireless devices within 20 meters. The scanner can also measure a signal’s strength and pinpoint its location.

Otherwise you have the trace icon matrix action, which is fairly inaccurate.

[DeathStrobe]

This is abstracted in to the trace icon action.

Also, the Matrix still theoretically works on a mesh, though Data Trails didn't quite clarify that. Anyway, assuming it still works as a mesh, signals don't need to be very strong, which probably helps with battery life. And it means that a device's signals don't need to be strong enough to reach all the antenna for triangulation, just strong enough to reach the next closest device to route its Matrix traffic to the next device.

Anyway, I wouldn't allow it, since it'd make it trivial to track devices inside a corp facility. Then your hacker also becomes a liability on a run and you need to run with no wireless on, and the conceit that Shadowrunners exist in a panopticon breaks down and the game becomes unrunable.

With that said, you can just allow it. I mean, why not. The game already supports that the runners and NPCs aren't playing by the same rules, as seen by the lack of rules for player owned hosts.

[Gloubi]

Thank you all for your replies!

@korusef

No need to ban this, just let him deal with the consequences. Some specific points:

• There are tons of wireless devices in SR5. Simple pen could have 3-5 RIFD wireless chips just after you buy it. So people will have to basically strip down.

I was thinking about this, but that safehouse is in an isolated location with very low traffic ("Obscure/Difficult to Find" lifestyle-trait).
So "foreign devices" do stand out

• There are indeed devices that are designed (military) to beat the triangulation. One common technique is to pseudo randomly rotate frequencies so your signal looks like random noise.

Okay, I can use that, thanks! I'll let the player know that such devices exist, and that his system won't be 100% foolproof

@Novocrane
That quote about the Matrix being "an ubiquitous ad-hoc wireless mesh network" is pretty interesting, thanks! Where does it come from, by the way?
Anyway, that'd invalidate such triangulation tech for sure.
(Edit: thinking about it, that wouldn't invalidate that triangulation system. Each device still emits a radio signal)

And I didn't know about the RF scanners until now (I see they're at page 440 of the core rule book). That's be a direct RAW equivalent of the system that the player came up with, that looks exactly like what I need!

@Deathstrobe
Thanks for your advice!

With that said, you can just allow it. I mean, why not. The game already supports that the runners and NPCs aren't playing by the same rules, as seen by the lack of rules for player owned hosts.

It's a good point, I didn't think about this at all

[Xenon]

...you have the trace icon matrix action, which is fairly inaccurate.

Why inaccurate?

[Reaver]

On the other side of the coin, thanks to how common wireless items are, (RFID tags, commlinks, security tags,etc) and the fact that even your underware is wireless his trianglezation method would just report static as it picks up 100,000 wireless devices on a single block.

Or prehaps 10,000,000 signals if he's near a retail space....




Udeas like this are well and fine, but its not really helpful when the wireless networks are so loaded up! Consider that the average person probably has a dozen items on him that broadcast continuously, how many people are within his set-up? How many buildings?


Yea, all he is getting is an overload signal if he tries this....

[Novocrane]

Where does it come from, by the way?

No problem. It's from the 4e core book.

Why inaccurate?

4e, because written as such. 5e, because it's not specifically as accurate as a radio signal scanner.

[gilga]

While it is theoretically possible, a friend of mine tried to do his master thesis on triangulating cellular antenna's - he failed. While it is mathematically possible the formula's were numerically unstable, meaning that a bit of noise caused a ripple effect that made the end result completely random.  Now I am not saying that it can't be done, I am saying that there is no documentation of such technology where cellphones triangulate a cellular antenna. My friend that is a brilliant student after a year and a half decided it cannot be realistically done.

This is a clear case where player knowledge blends with game knowledge, there are so many things that can go wrong and this triangulation is probably what you do in a trace icon action.  So I'd say let the player speak geek to RP but mechanically stick with trace icon actions, you can give him RP dice bonus for being awesome and investing a lot of time thinking about  it.

[LordGrizzle]

I was thinking about this, but that safehouse is in an isolated location with very low traffic ("Obscure/Difficult to Find" lifestyle-trait).
So "foreign devices" do stand out

I am not 100% sure I would let this argument count for the simple reason of the new matrix requiring permanent connection to the grid for any device to function, so you can't really have "no traffic" and "little traffic" I dunno, maybe.
Though I would only let that count if he also gets at least 4 noise from being far away from the matrix. Otherwise there is too much traffic from the grid to make a distinction, especially with a primitive homemade set of antennas like he would build

@Novocrane
That quote about the Matrix being "an ubiquitous ad-hoc wireless mesh network" is pretty interesting, thanks! Where does it come from, by the way?
Anyway, that'd invalidate such triangulation tech for sure.
(Edit: thinking about it, that wouldn't invalidate that triangulation system. Each device still emits a radio signal)

It's from 4th ed Unwired if I am not mistaken :-). (Which does not invalidate it by the way, the matrix has gotten even messi... uhm meshier since back then)
It kinda does invalidate it though as was stated earlier devices that are in hidden mode (4th) or running silent (5th) are probably doing a couple of things that prevent them from being detected.
First, they'll probably NOT give off any radio signals except when they really have to. So part of a matrix perception test could actually be tricking devices around you to give you a response because they think it's necessary.
Second when they have to send they'll use the nearest device so that their own signal-path is short.
And devices with a sleaze rating may use a number of much more advanced methods of hiding themselves.

I think the main reason why any device is detectable that every device has to send a keep alive signal to it's own grid so that they'll remain online and the grid probably triangulates on it's own because how would you be able to trace an incon or know of it's location if the grid didn't take care of that for you (mind you, BECAUSE the matrix is very good a location things, only very few things actually have true gps anymore)

I personally would still allow such a device if it operated under the same rules as the bug scanner. Electronic Warfare + Logic vs. Logic + Sleaze is absolutely fair in my opinion.

[Gloubi]

I was thinking about this, but that safehouse is in an isolated location with very low traffic ("Obscure/Difficult to Find" lifestyle-trait).
So "foreign devices" do stand out

I am not 100% sure I would let this argument count for the simple reason of the new matrix requiring permanent connection to the grid for any device to function, so you can't really have "no traffic" and "little traffic" I dunno, maybe.
Though I would only let that count if he also gets at least 4 noise from being far away from the matrix. Otherwise there is too much traffic from the grid to make a distinction, especially with a primitive homemade set of antennas like he would build

Hi Lordgrizzle!

The issue is that these antennas operate at a hardware level. They're detecting the radio signal that devices emit in order to communicate with the matrix. These antennas are inside the safe-house, which mean they won't get flooded by far-away signals. And since the area where the safehouse is  isolated, there shouldn't be too many signals nearby.
So the thing is that he is not "far" from the matrix - It's just that there are not so many devices around to flood the system.

In our current time, It could take several hundre of thousands of devices before the system gets flooded, so in 2072 and in a quiet area, it seemed unlikely to happen.

This is a clear case where player knowledge blends with game knowledge, there are so many things that can go wrong and this triangulation is probably what you do in a trace icon action.  So I'd say let the player speak geek to RP but mechanically stick with trace icon actions, you can give him RP dice bonus for being awesome and investing a lot of time thinking about  it.

Hi Gilga!
I'm discussing with the player, and we might end up with a solution along these lines, thanks

[LordGrizzle]

I was thinking about this, but that safehouse is in an isolated location with very low traffic ("Obscure/Difficult to Find" lifestyle-trait).
So "foreign devices" do stand out

I am not 100% sure I would let this argument count for the simple reason of the new matrix requiring permanent connection to the grid for any device to function, so you can't really have "no traffic" and "little traffic" I dunno, maybe.
Though I would only let that count if he also gets at least 4 noise from being far away from the matrix. Otherwise there is too much traffic from the grid to make a distinction, especially with a primitive homemade set of antennas like he would build

Hi Lordgrizzle!

The issue is that these antennas operate at a hardware level. They're detecting the radio signal that devices emit in order to communicate with the matrix. These antennas are inside the safe-house, which mean they won't get flooded by far-away signals. And since the area where the safehouse is  isolated, there shouldn't be too many signals nearby.
So the thing is that he is not "far" from the matrix - It's just that there are not so many devices around to flood the system.

Is there matrix access in that safe house?

Also looking at my previous post I apparently set the quote tags completely all over the place, it is fixed

And now I wrote inside the quote tags in this post, what's wrong with me today

[Darzil]

So the thing is that he is not "far" from the matrix - It's just that there are not so many devices around to flood the system.

If there aren't many devices around, as the matrix effectively works through a mesh of devices (except when using a satellite uplink), then you have effectively a static noise environment (when bandwidth for communication is reduced).

I think the thing I find wrong here is that he is apparently easily and cheaply able to build a thing that can detect low power devices, despite noise from power, surrounding buildings, echos from walls, etc, etc, etc, yet is 100% reliable, so way above say an agent running Matrix Perception and Trace Icon, which even at high ratings would sometimes give false positives on a glitch. And of course despite the communication going via other devices.

If you really want to allow him this, then it'll need a control system, an agent, and it'll effectively be making Matrix Perception and Trace Icon rolls. Either that or leave it unable to distinguish between devices, and have it hit a lot of false positives.

[Gloubi]

So the thing is that he is not "far" from the matrix - It's just that there are not so many devices around to flood the system.

If there aren't many devices around, as the matrix effectively works through a mesh of devices (except when using a satellite uplink), then you have effectively a static noise environment (when bandwidth for communication is reduced).

I think the thing I find wrong here is that he is apparently easily and cheaply able to build a thing that can detect low power devices, despite noise from power, surrounding buildings, echos from walls, etc, etc, etc, yet is 100% reliable, so way above say an agent running Matrix Perception and Trace Icon, which even at high ratings would sometimes give false positives on a glitch. And of course despite the communication going via other devices.

If you really want to allow him this, then it'll need a control system, an agent, and it'll effectively be making Matrix Perception and Trace Icon rolls. Either that or leave it unable to distinguish between devices, and have it hit a lot of false positives.

I think I see where you're going, Darzil. These antennas are a passive detection mechanism, and you assume that  because of the way the matrix is designed, there would be too much noise for that kind of detection to be 100% reliable.
That makes sense, it could also be that the way hardware connects to the matrix requires advanced and active detectors on the other end, and not just passive antennas.

As for detecting low-power devices, his analogy is with current-time mobile phones. However, since you say the matrix is a mesh of devices, it could be that a commlink only needs to emit a weak signal to any other device nearby (that is connected to the matrix), and not broadcast its position to far-away antennas

[LordGrizzle]

I was thinking about this, but that safehouse is in an isolated location with very low traffic ("Obscure/Difficult to Find" lifestyle-trait).
So "foreign devices" do stand out

I am not 100% sure I would let this argument count for the simple reason of the new matrix requiring permanent connection to the grid for any device to function, so you can't really have "no traffic" and "little traffic" I dunno, maybe.
Though I would only let that count if he also gets at least 4 noise from being far away from the matrix. Otherwise there is too much traffic from the grid to make a distinction, especially with a primitive homemade set of antennas like he would build

Hi Lordgrizzle!

The issue is that these antennas operate at a hardware level. They're detecting the radio signal that devices emit in order to communicate with the matrix. These antennas are inside the safe-house, which mean they won't get flooded by far-away signals. And since the area where the safehouse is  isolated, there shouldn't be too many signals nearby.
So the thing is that he is not "far" from the matrix - It's just that there are not so many devices around to flood the system.

Are you sure about that? Because if both devices use the same frequency (which is likely, because same technology) and are both communicating the antennas are already in trouble. Because it is actually possible that the devices send in such short time next to each other that one signal may be sent before the other has reached all antennas and then triangulation fails already spectacularly, giving you ONE position that does not resemble the position of any of the two. And now think that you may have 10 devices in that safe house.

Now that means these antennas would have to be relatively smart, not only detecting signals, but also evaluate each signal and actually find out if it has the same content. Okay fine, that's still possible, but without being able to make some specialized hardware (like the bug scanner) the weakest device capable of coordinating such a detection mechanism would surely be a cyberdeck.

Now there is another problem: The mesh. I don't know how big the area is you are trying to cover but: imagine someone slips a bug into your kitchen. That bug runs silently so it does the following on hardware-level: it scans it's environment for other devices and finds your oven. It realizes that oven is three meters away and sends signals that only range 3 meters. And your oven, that is either not running silently, or connected to the outside world by wire will now send that data to the outside-world. If there is no antenna within 3 meters you won't pick up that signal at all, just see the regular routed traffic from your oven, and if it is not analyzing that it won't see anything suspicious. And analyzing traffic is exactly what happens if you detect devices with a matrix perception test. And ven if there is an antenna within three meters of the oven you still can't triangulate because the signal only reaches one antenna. The irony in this is actually due to the fact that all matrix devices operate as routers the electronics that control your antenna and send received signals elsewhere for analysis would also serve as a router exactly FOR THAT BUG if it was three meters close to that bug.

So you see, it's not that easy, not even nowadays but especially in the future to do that and I will absolutely agree with what gilga said. We looked into the matter of trilatering phones inside a building and even if the devices are cooperating (read: they send signals specifically designed to be used in the triangulation process, or well in our case trilateration) just the static from a nearby radio station can just throw you off massively as well as questions: Is the signal behind a wall or weak? Is it inside a thick jacket or is it a few metres off to the side? We didn't get anywhere with off-the-shelf equipment.

Honestly it's quite impressive that a bug scanner even can detect devices within 20 metres at that little cost. Maybe Shadowrun-hardware is just more advanced. And if that is the case I would let him build such a system and go with the opinion that most stated here already: Just make it a bonus to the relevant matrix tests.

Oh and by the way, if he knows how you can build such a detection method for a few hundred bucks my company would pay millions for the technology, surely, because it's NOT... THAT... EASY... in any real life scenario that is not a building with readiation shielding like a nuclear bomb shelter.