[Jack_Spade]

Thanks for telling me your perspective.
But you see, being a bad ass character means nothing at all if no action ever leads to a success. I mean really. So far I was always forced to disengage instead of achieving anything.
Your first action would be bombing the car with the hostage inside. You can't tell me that is what success should look like.
Also, there is a flaw in your expectation that Kynos would not attack, because the opposition is to strong: He has Super Human Psychosis and Dead Emotion: Fear.
I gave my best to play those drawbacks consistently. Although at creation I didn't think I'd have to go on solo runs constantly. The action economy just doesn't play out that way if I have to fight same level opposition with superior numbers and superior awareness of the battlefield as well. At the same time I really can't not try to attack them.
And I can't even use drugs anymore. My stash is depleted because - again - I can no longer resupply.

But one after the other:
Kynos does not know about the bunker. That is how I played it. I did hope you'd throw me a hint in any way. That's why I didn't do any straight forward violence but instead only committed to a stupid stunt that didn't achieve anything.
And HE grenades in public are still a very bad idea especially if they come from drones that can be hacked. Think about it and ask yourself if you'd have used those if Minnie had been there instead of Kynos. If you changed your reality for me than you did in fact try to sabotage me. The HE grenade didn't directly damage me (because than I'd have been out of action immediately), instead it forced me to either give up on my objective, or accept damage at the end of the round. Fighting against an 11 man firing squad was no picnic either. The shot that hit did in fact damage me severely. It was pure luck that it was only one.
It's the same situation with the tasers. You totally went overboard there to ensure the defeat of Maxwell.

What you have to understand is, that you as GM have unlimited resources while the players have very limited ones. It might seem to you that you need to up the challenge every time Kynos survives - may it be luck with the dice or just aborting the mission in time - but from my perspective it's fighting harder battles with ever diminishing resources - a war of attrition or a death spiral if you so will.
There is no pay-off only frustration. If I'd wanted that, I'd played Dark Heresy. 

@Spirit sand trap:
The power of the spirit is immaterial (and it certainly wasn't week at rating 5). Engulf and energy aura are certain death. Especially because you made it a trap with no possible way to evade it (the successful perception test only allowed a defense, no circumventing the patch of ground). More importantly, if that ploy succeeded I would have been stopped and captured - game over.

@Surprise test:
The adept may have combat sense, but the text says:

Combat Sense
[...] Adepts with this power
are always allowed a Perception Test before a possible surprise situation, gaining the benefit of being alerted if the test is successful.

That is a perception test as in one perception test.

There really is no point in me trying to split my dice pool to take them out simultaneously if you decide they do gain their defense regardless no matter if they spotted the sniper or not (Being aware where an attack comes from is the key element in having defense against it not if they are alerted). The surprise rules are RAI for threats you can perceive in some way.
And you certainly did not bother with mutual surprise tests during your ambushes - you made it a perception: "yes or no game".

It is rules legal, that I don't dispute, but you selectively enforce those rules because you feel that it would be too easy for me otherwise. This is frustrating. Especially if you than go on and complain about me being able to disable a car, but you saw no problem in the metagame of shooting my bike because you realized that hitting Kynos was harder. You have an endless supply of cars, I have lost a great deal of resources that I can't replenish, because every opportunity to earn more money turns out to be a trap not designed to be won. (By your own admission, the 30k are in the possession of a gang of prime runners that weren't meant to be defeated - if the money exists at all.)
You also don't want me to be able to stop the car with DemoX. And if it's stopped your first action is to kill the hostage - no matter how senseless that is. (And no, id doesn't matter what grenade he threw inside: Even just pepperpunch will kill a helpless/unprotected victim within 3 rounds in an unventilated room. Not to mention junky salza of a flash bang within those confines)

But what might be the biggest problem is, that you gave no indication whatsoever that the guards were hardened shadow runners instead of the usual goons.
It's your job to convey such information,
Because in this form it feels as if they spontaneously transformed from your standard rating 3 opponents into a prime runner just because Kynos came near them.

And about overcasting: it's the principle of the thing. I commend Mulcarn for his great roleplaying and utter disregard of sanity in the choice of his weapons. With just a little restraint and preparation he could have done this without knocking himself out in the process.


As it stands, this will probably be Kynos' last fight. After that he neither has the ammo, nor the health, nor the money to try anything like this again.

[gilga]

1. I do not actually understand WHY Kynos did these things why a refusal to see Maxwell means violence and grenades and stuff but okay. (other than PR in a direct assault against hordes of Yaks).
2. This scene is because Athos alerted the Yaks. So as they went to investigate for the drone they located the rigger.
3. The adept used a flash bang grenade to incapacitate the people in the car.
4. is a bulldog van poor loot? because I'd imagine it yielding a nice income.

but seriously - we're talking 'on' this scene rather than playing it you need some trust that there is a reasonable solution to come up ahead. I feel that trying to take out two NPC's with a single round without giving them a chance to even dodge is you trying to trivialize the fight maybe because you feel like this is the only way to win but this placed me in a very bad place trying to challenge you.

[Jack_Spade]

1. Kynos came to fetch Sovereign, who was - as far as Kynos was concerned - captured just like DemoX (sudden signal loss). He tried to negotiate (not his strong suit). When that didn't work, he tried to take out (nonlethal) the goons of Strawberry to improve his negotiation position. When she tried again to possess his body with her spirit, she triggered his previous vow to make her domain into a wasteland. Therefore he tried to attack her shrine. At any point he would have accepted Sovereign in exchange for a stop in hostilities. As it stands now his next move will be rigging up a car full of explosives and driving that into the heart of her territory, threatening to blow it up if his demands are not met.

2. This scene is, because I play my character to care about his team members. If not, well than my participation is probably not essential since the story will play out regardless.

3. Chunky Salsa: 10m effect, at max 2m room inside. p.183
"When a grenade detonates in a confined space, such as a hallway or room, the gamemaster must first determine whether any barriers (usually walls) stood firm against the explosion. Consult the Destroying Barriers rules (p. 197). If the walls or doors hold up, the blast is channeled. Otherwise, determine blast effects normally. If the walls hold, the shock wave reflects off of them, continuing back in the direction from which it came. If this rebounding shock wave maintains enough Damage Value to reach a character, that character is subject to the appropriate blast effect. If the character is struck a second time by the shock wave (once as it headed out and again as it rebounded), the Damage Value of the blast is equal to the combined Damage Value of the two waves. Theoretically, a detonating explosive’s blast could rebound repeatedly off each of the six surfaces in a small, well-built room, raising the effective Damage Value of the blast to a value far higher than the original damage of the grenade. This is known as the “chunky salsa effect.” "
 
It will rebound four times before it stops, so 40S AP4.

4. Yes. Very much so.
First of all: I don't recall getting one. Secondly, I have no way to claim ownership or even start the thing. Thirdly, I have no way of turning the thing into cash, since I am still without my fence. Fourthly, even if I could sell the thing I'd get 15% retail I'd only get 5250NY. That won't even cover the losses I had in regard to my bike and the ammo I used up.

To sum it up: Kynos is no car thieve. If he was he wouldn't be here in the first place. He'd already be rich and retired.

[gilga]

You did not get the bulldog one of the solutions that I considered to how to get DemoX out was was instead of making the bulldog escape and try to catch it - to seat in the diver seat and take it while fighting the people that manage to cling to it. In this scenario you are likely to get a nice bulldog van either to replace your bike or if you prefer a bike to sell for some profit using the nukes that will definitely be contacts if you bring them DemoX.

After giving you two possible solutions that I had in mind that can end with both DemoX and a van. Without being overwhelmed with runners I hope that I got your trust that I place you in situations that can be solved. I mean there may be other ways that I did not think off, but I always try to think of solutions before I deploy the scene.

Also about the loss you had, I honestly thought you'd stick with DemoX and possibly Maxwell until Venom leaves the island and end him as he reaches shore naked and relatively unprotected. (or capture him and deliver to Strawberry). This is when I thought your next opportunity to claim big money was.

Even if you missed it, I brought Venom back to Strawberry and she hired you to deliver him - I did not understand why Maxwell that was hired to take Venom to the airport did not simply asked to do his job now that Venom is there, but he did not and it backfired for him but the situation was still salvageable even after Maxwell did THAT. 

If Kynos was more polite and less of a terrorist negotiator - he'd still get to escort Venom to the airport. (and either kill him there or kill him outside of Seattle)  I did not cause these loses - Kynos and Maxwell caused them. I just tried to be flexible open minded and see how it goes. But you play the characters you play how you like them with their flaws and if Kynos is the terrorist hostage kind of person this is what he is and the losses this approach bring him are part of his personality flaws. I enjoy building things and I also enjoy when you destroy stuff.

As it stands now his next move will be rigging up a car full of explosives and driving that into the heart of her territory, threatening to blow it up if his demands are not met.

I am honestly 100% fun with that but this is again the kind of thinking that leads Kynos to financial loss. He tried to assault his Johnson for crying out loud. That said if you want Kynos to do it in the following scene you can secure both a van and a demolition expert making a terror van should be easy from there.

[All4BigGuns]

I know that a lot of people on these boards harp on the "consequences of actions" thing, but you're honestly taking it way to far with Kynos.

I'll admit that I'm getting quite irate as well. I decided to try giving another chance after the debacle of the other game being basically a no-pay bait and switch(*), but I'm getting close to blowing off just from the way you're 'explaining' with Jack.


(*) Bait and switch because you made it sound as though there would be equipment for creating Alpha-grade implants as well as implanting them to lure Crossbow and myself into accepting your suicide run and then pull out later that there was no such thing present. The no-pay with no real information was bad enough, but only being able to grab up bandages and small stuff like that combined to make that a total screw over. At least it seemed that way.

[gilga]

Well you did not do that run and I honestly (from the name of the thread) thought you'll refuse it because it was a suicide run without a pay that involves a lot of killing but let's not open this up for discussion. NPCs all have their own agendas and part of being in the shadows is to sometimes take the run sometime skip it and apparently sometimes assault your Johnson in-front of a mob of armed Yak soldiers. I am doing my best to not have you follow some script but build the world and the places in it according to your characters.

A lot of the story have evolved around Kynos - his desire to kill Venom shaped a lot of it. The mess and frustration is because of the super human psychosis and lack of fear - the way they are manifested in Kynos. The same consequences are for Maxwell but he created a pyromaniac mage that just want to watch the world burn and cares very little about other stuff.

[All4BigGuns]

And yet in the case I brought up it was either do that run or lose a very important aspect of the character that I had at the time and that Crossbow had (losing the clinics because of not having the supplies to run them). That feels very much scripted.

As to Kynos's situation, the problem is that, like he said, it seems as though opposition morphs into huge "prime" individuals just because he's involved. I'm getting involved here because with how I built Edge, I'm afraid that I'll end up facing that same thing, and I know that I won't be able to hold up against that no matter how accurate my knife is.

Also, I'm trying to point out where perceived flaws are so that you can fix them.

[gilga]

Well the story I planned was that the day after the knights contact you and ask for details about this as they are investigating the raid on their facility and where not very far behind Deep Blue. They pressured your fixers and made a mess their annoying way of doing business.

You tell them about the raid and about your lack of supplies and strike some deal, you help them with something and they'll pay you with supplies. You only have to testify when they caught Deep Blue of what she tried to hire you to do.

It did not go out as planned... this is why I named that story 'geek the mage' I thought you'll go after a rouge toxic mage.

[Mercy Merchant]

Gilga, I am afraid that I feel a need to chime in on this subject as well.  You and I have had long discussions about some aspects of the game that have frustrated me, some a great deal.  You and I have worked some of that out and part of it is just me needing to man up.  But my five biggest complaints so far are listed below.  Please believe that I am saying these to try to get us all in a game that is fun.  Also, I may be speaking for myself, so please do not attribute my comments to any of the other players unless they chime in to support them.

1.  I think the overall plot is incredibly far beyond what we as shadow runners should be involved in or have any possible means to affect.  We are runners, not power brokers and certainly not the sort of people normally associated with changing the world.  In my opinion, your main plot line is very over-reaching for us as characters and you seem intent on dragging us headlong into things that affect millions of people with the idea being that we need to be the ones that clean it all up and fix things.  I am more used to being part of a team that some Johnson sends out to do something, not actually being forced to be the decision makers for saving the city.  That moves us completely out of the realm of what shadowrunning is.

2.  The fragging motion is completely non-stop.  There is no time to collect thoughts or spend any down time for ANY purpose, whether that might be using karma for training skills or improving attributes.  Athos has collected some karma but has had absolutely zero time to spend any and it does not seem that this is going to change.  The plot just moves at its own pace and the players have no ability to do anything but move with it.  The plot is so huge and over-reaching that we cannot stop for our own downtime or the world ends, or at least Seattle.

3.  You seem to have a real love for your NPCs.  What I mean is that everybody we meet is either a group of bad-asses or one super being with bad-ass minions.  While that might be OK as the final encounter in a plot line, it seems that this is EVERY encounter.  Drones firing grenades, prime shadowrunners, and malicious rogue AI that are far superior to any of our individual talents or skills are just some of the examples of what I am talking about.  Even the allies and part-time companions are very much better at everything we do and that begs the question of why the frag are we doing it.  And it is a justifiable impression that you seem to change the stats and abilities to fit the team member going against them, in the latest case it was the guys that Kynos faced.  You are the moderator for a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone.  Sure, we do not want to just run over all of the opposition, but neither do we need to feel exceptionally underpowered for every encounter.  That really brings out two reactions:  the first is the uber deadly drek that Kynos and Sovereign can unleash.  Athos has not got the ability to deal that sort of death and mayhem so just feels completely inadequate.  The second response is that the players quit the game.

4.  There seems to be a complete lack of any resolution to the plot - any of the plot lines.  So far it seems to me that EVERY clue traced down just leads to another warren to run into to get the answer.  At no point are we allowed to answer the questions asked by our respective Johnsons.  And before you claim that we have the answers, let me tell you again that no matter what the GM thinks, if the players have the perception that they do not have the answers then THAT is the reality to them and it just breeds significant frustration into the game.  Let us solve something as an end to a plot line before going on to something else.  It is great if the solution leads to the next part of the onion, but at this time, I have no idea that I have solved any part of the problem I was given on page 1.  I have refused to continue much more research into the assassination plot because of this and am striking out on a very probably unrealistic project that is almost certainly doomed to failure just to try to focus on something I might be able to influence.

5.  Teamwork is really missing here, and that is mostly because you have stripped us all away from each other.  Certainly Cat could drop the Strawberry angle and Kynos could find some imaginary and completely unrealistic reason to stick with Athos and the same with Edge and Sovereign, but those reasons would be completely unrealistic based on what you have given the individual character to do.  Kynos and Sovereign are working on direct opposite goals to what Yulia and Athos want for Venom, and that is no good way to act as a team.  Too, we are constantly being pulled in different directions by the plot lines you develop for each character to follow.  While this is not terribly bad for realism, it sucks for keeping a team together.  That coupled with huge boss-level bad guys at every turn that have to be dealt with by individuals instead a coordinated team makes it tough to play.

Having said all of this, I would like to continue in the game.  I would hope that you can see your way to making some fundamental changes to the way you GM.  If you cannot, I despair for the future of your grand idea.  Please listen to your players.  I think that this is your first time as GM and feel that most of these errors are basically rookie mistakes we all go through.  It took a long time before I was able to see my own mistakes when GM for D&D campaigns.  I had to do a ton of soul searching and swallow my pride at the criticism of my great ideas and concepts.  The bottom line is that no matter now proud you are of your creation or your skills as a GM, it is a failure if the players are not happy, because they will eventually leave and you will be left wondering why.  I really urge you to approach each of the dissatisfied players and ask what they think is wrong and see if you can modify your game to change their perceptions.  Do not act defensive or offer reasons why you have done such and such.  Just listen at first.  Then sit down with yourself and see if anything makes sense and if you can correct what they perceive as wrong.  You will not be able to satisfy everyone, which is one reason there are a lot of different games on the board.  Not all players want the same thing.  However, it seems that at least three of the players in this game have similar issues with it.  I ma sure that every one of us would be glad to offer constructive advise if you ask.  Your challenge will be in hearing things said about your creation that you do not agree with.  But in the final analysis it matters most that the GM AND the players have a good time playing, not just the GM and not just the players.

[All4BigGuns]

Gilga, I am afraid that I feel a need to chime in on this subject as well.  You and I have had long discussions about some aspects of the game that have frustrated me, some a great deal.  You and I have worked some of that out and part of it is just me needing to man up.  But my five biggest complaints so far are listed below.  Please believe that I am saying these to try to get us all in a game that is fun.  Also, I may be speaking for myself, so please do not attribute my comments to any of the other players unless they chime in to support them.

1.  I think the overall plot is incredibly far beyond what we as shadow runners should be involved in or have any possible means to affect.  We are runners, not power brokers and certainly not the sort of people normally associated with changing the world.  In my opinion, your main plot line is very over-reaching for us as characters and you seem intent on dragging us headlong into things that affect millions of people with the idea being that we need to be the ones that clean it all up and fix things.  I am more used to being part of a team that some Johnson sends out to do something, not actually being forced to be the decision makers for saving the city.  That moves us completely out of the realm of what shadowrunning is.

2.  The fragging motion is completely non-stop.  There is no time to collect thoughts or spend any down time for ANY purpose, whether that might be using karma for training skills or improving attributes.  Athos has collected some karma but has had absolutely zero time to spend any and it does not seem that this is going to change.  The plot just moves at its own pace and the players have to ability to do anything but move with it.  The plot is so huge and over-reaching that we cannot stop for our own downtime or the world ends, or at least Seattle.

3.  You seem to have a real love for your NPCs.  What I mean is that everybody we meet is either a group of bad-asses or one super being with bad-ass minions.  While that might be OK as the final encounter in a plot line, it seems that this is EVERY encounter.  Drones firing grenades, prime shadowrunners, and malicious rogue AI that are far superior to any of our individual talents or skills are just some of the examples of what I am talking about.  Even the allies and part-time companions are very much better at everything we do and that begs the question of why the frag are we doing it.  And it is a justifiable impression that you seem to change the stats and abilities to fit the team member going against them, in the latest case it was the guys that Kynos faced.  You are the moderator for a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone.  Sure, we do not want to just run over all of the opposition, but neither do we need to feel exceptionally underpowered for every encounter.  That really brings out two reactions"  the first is the uber deadly drek that Kynos and Sovereign can unleash.  Athos has not got the ability to deal that sort of death and mayhem so just feels completely inadequate.  The second response is that the players quit the game.

4.  There seems to be a complete lack of any resolution to the plot - any of the plot lines.  So far it seems to me that EVERY clue traced down just leads to another warren to run into to get the answer.  At no point are we allowed to answer the questions asked by our respective Johnsons.  And before you claim that we have the answers, let me tell you again that no matter what the GM thinks, if the players have the perception that they do not have the answers then THAT is the reality to them and it just breeds significant frustration into the game.  Let us solve something as an end to a plot line before going on to something else.  It is great if the solution leads to the next part of the onion, but at this time, I have no idea that I have solved any part of the problem I was given on page 1.  I have refused to continue much more research into the assassination plot because of this and am striking out on a very probably unrealistic project that is almost certainly doomed to failure just to try to focus on something I might be able to influence.

5.  Teamwork is really missing here, and that is mostly because you have stripped us all away from each other.  Certainly Cat could drop the Strawberry angle and Kynos could find some imaginary and completely unrealistic reason to stick with Athos and the same with Edge and Sovereign, but those reasons would be completely unrealistic based on what you have given the individual character to do.  Kynos and Sovereign are working on direct opposite goals to what Yulia and Athos want for Venom, and that is no good way to act as a team.  Too, we are constantly being pulled in different directions by the plot lines you develop for each character to follow.  While this is not terribly bad for realism, it sucks for keeping a team together.  That coupled with huge boss-level bad guys at every turn that have to be dealt with by individuals instead a coordinated team makes it tough to play.

Having said all of this, I would like to continue in the game.  I would hope that you can see your way to making some fundamental changes to the way you GM.  If you cannot, I despair for the future of your grand idea.  Please listen to your players.  I think that this is your first time as GM and feel that most of these errors are basically rookie mistakes we all go through.  It took a long time before I was able to see my own mistakes when GM for D&D campaigns.  I had to do a ton of soul searching and swallow my pride at the criticism of my great ideas and concepts.  The bottom line is that no matter now proud you are of your creation or your skills as a GM, it is a failure if the players are not happy because they will eventually leave and you will be left wondering why.  I really urge you to approach eachof the dissatisfied players and ask what they think is wrong and see if you can modify your game to change their perceptions.  You will not be able to satisfy everyone, which is one reason there are a lot of different games on the board.  Not all players want the same thing.  However, it seems that at least three of the players in this game have similar issues with it.  I ma sure that every one of us would be glad to offer constructive advise if you ask.  Your challenge will be in hearing things said about your creation that you do not agree with.  But in the final analysis it matters most that the GM AND the players have a good time playing, not just the GM and not just the players.

You hit the nail on the head Mercy. Thanks. I'm just not good enough with words to explain just right, but you have the general gist there.

I do have to add one thing though. With regard to what happened with the whole Geek the Mage line, you might have had 'contingency plans' for if we didn't go for it, but the way that one was presented gave the appearance that it was either that or nothing--and appearance is EVERYTHING. (Oh, and the main reason it was never completed was because of the surgery I had to go in for kept me out and Crossbow seemed to vanish while I was recovering--which is part of why I didn't bother trying to resurrect it and instead made the new character(s).)

[Mercy Merchant]

Thanks.  As I have said several times and have come to know quite painfully when at the other end of these comments is that perception IS reality.  No matter the grand scheme or the clever clues and plot hooks, in the final analysis it is the perception of the players that is the reality, not my own.  Or, rather, it is a shared perception of the game that should be the reality.

[All4BigGuns]

I think that part of the problem might be that the scale is a bit too big right off the bat. I mean, I was in a game that did some earth shaking things (stuff that I won't get into because we should NEVER have gotten away with most of it), but those things were instigated by the party mainly through a goal of revenge-seeking from the most respected member of the team. That team was also so close to each other by the time we did any of that stuff that they might as well have been blood kin.

[Mercy Merchant]

Yes, that was my point #1 above.  This sort of gaming is way above us, especially since we are, in effect, five players playing five separate games right now.  This sort of action will never let us develop close ties to each other, something I feel would be essential to doing that sort of plot.

[All4BigGuns]

Yes, that was my point #1 above.  This sort of gaming is way above us, especially since we are, in effect, five players playing five separate games right now.  This sort of action will never let us develop close ties to each other, something I feel would be essential to doing that sort of plot.

Yeah, in order to do anything on a grand scale, the PCs need to come to trust each other implicitly and work together like a well-oiled machine.

I'm thinking that at this point, the current objectives need to just be narrated to completion in a single GM post and the characters brought together, but I'm not sure that would even work well since Sovereign seems to have burned a lot of bridges and Kynos is kind of acting at cross purposes with regard to at least one PC.

[Mercy Merchant]

Uhuh.  Things could be tough to mend.  Kynos, probably Sovereign, want Venom dead, although they have made an effort to not kill him a couple of times.  Yulia and Athos want to get him out of town alive.  Players acting at cross purposes from other players does not breed friendship or trust.  I do not know how the story would end for Seattle given that the epidemic of destruction seems to have a life of its own now.