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The doors in Big D's will

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Crimsondude

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« Reply #45 on: <09-10-15/2002:00> »
Percentage did matter when the Big Eight had to dilute their 12.5% stakes to 10% to account for CATCo's and Wuxing's ascendance in the 2060s.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #46 on: <09-10-15/2203:10> »
... which is why they have 13 justices.  They will never have a tie, because at this level, no justice is going to abstain.  And from time to time, even if one corporation possesses multiple justices, they may just split their vote onto either side of the issue at hand.  Do you ever actually read the source material?

Well that's not really anything I've heard of, mainly because I'm still new to the game.

Chill the frag out, not everyone has been playing since the start, not everyone has access to or read every single source book.
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witchdoctor

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« Reply #47 on: <09-10-15/2228:50> »
... which is why they have 13 justices.  They will never have a tie, because at this level, no justice is going to abstain.  And from time to time, even if one corporation possesses multiple justices, they may just split their vote onto either side of the issue at hand.  Do you ever actually read the source material?

Well that's not really anything I've heard of, mainly because I'm still new to the game.

Chill the frag out, not everyone has been playing since the start, not everyone has access to or read every single source book.

It mostly stems from it's origins, I believe, from the original US Supreme Court which historically has always had an odd number of Justices to avoid a case where there's a deadlock because they can't get a majority, they just added Justices due to their being more Megacorps but the odd Justice rule was kept.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #48 on: <09-11-15/1420:03> »
... which is why they have 13 justices.  They will never have a tie, because at this level, no justice is going to abstain.  And from time to time, even if one corporation possesses multiple justices, they may just split their vote onto either side of the issue at hand.  Do you ever actually read the source material?
Well that's not really anything I've heard of, mainly because I'm still new to the game.

Chill the frag out, not everyone has been playing since the start, not everyone has access to or read every single source book.

If you were the one who was being spoken to - by which I mean to say if you'd been the one who had posted immediately previous to my post, or even if you'd posted at all in this thread - then you might have a right to talk as you did in your second sentence.  You aren't, you didn't, you therefore pretty much don't.  Since you're still new to the game, though, I don't expect you to have even known that the megacorporations were originally 7 members; while the number of justices is discussed in places other than just the corporation sourcebooks, I'll concede that it's possibly obscure.

However, the person I was talking to - still not you, note - HAS claimed to have read the material, hence my irritation and contempt.  If you insist on injecting yourself into the middle of a conversation and taking umbrage at things not addressed to you, however, you might need a raincoat.  Or armor.  Because this 'I'm a newbie, cut me some slack' excuse goes right away the moment you start acting like this.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #49 on: <09-11-15/1619:52> »
I would like to point out that regardless of your phrasing, when I puzzled about 8 justices and hung juries it prompted new information educating us in something that apparently isn't public knowledge.   So kudos to me for teaching something new. And thanks to Wyrm for his marginal assistance.

Now as a followup, if ten justices are appointed by each of the big ten, how are the last three appointed?

Sendaz

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« Reply #50 on: <09-11-15/1643:49> »
This is where it gets fun.

According to Corporate Download pg 21, each Justice sits for a six and a half year stretch unless recalled by their corp who usually shoot the fragger if they have screwed up that badly to require a recall. Due to the staggering, there is normally an election every six month.

There is a special commission that is made up of 2 reps from each of the Big 10 that gets to vote on the new Justice being put forward by their corp.
So Corp A may submit their candidate, but the commission still gets to vote on whether that particular person get to fill the spot or not.
However the votes are not as simple as 1 rep=1 vote.  Oh no, rather they use a complex formula based on all sort of details to 'weigh' that vote so a more prosperous Mega's vote will carry more weight  than a less powerful one.

Plus you there is a clause that specifically protects the original 7 from ever losing their last seat on the Court (edit)so if it's the Azzies only spot on the CC only they could put forward a candidate for that slot-though again the commission could still reject that specific candidate and require another from the corp, though it would have to be a real whack job like Mr. Darke to get turned down I would imagine since messing around like that by the other corps will be remembered when time comes for their own justices comes up for election(/edit).
 Plus since this clause only extends to the original seven, that does mean a company like Wuxing could potentially lose their seat and hence their AAA status, since being AAA is dependant on their holding a place on the CC.  Fun no?

So right now Ares I believe still has two justices sitting, though that may well have changed, but that is where your extras are coming from.
« Last Edit: <09-11-15/1659:36> by Sendaz »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #51 on: <09-11-15/1655:21> »
Everything in the books is 'public knowledge', CitJoe, and you didn't do a damn thing except express your contempt for what you saw as being SR's stupidity.  Stop breaking your arm trying to pat yourself on the back for 'teaching something new' with the someone else who actually taught the information 'giving marginal assistance'.

Justices are selected, as I recall, every six months, meaning that a judge's appointment lasts for six and a half years.  If the judge 'lost' belongs to one of the Founding 7 but that's the only judge they have on the board, the judge has to be appointed out of that corporation.  If not - whether it's a Founding 7's second judge, or if it's a judge belonging to a corporation that is NOT of the Founding 7 - it may be appointed (by the rest of the court, I think, but I'd need to double-check that one) to any other corporation.  If it's appointed to a corporation that's not already represented on the board, that corporation automatically gains AAA status, and is assigned an equal share of the ZOG Bank.  (Which DOES make money, as well as having other benefits for the corporations, like very large, very-low-interest loans.)

EDIT: Sendaz gives a more complete version.  :)  Thanks, Sendaz!!
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Wakshaani

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« Reply #52 on: <09-11-15/1758:44> »
You'll probably see more about the way the court operates, including getting judges, and an updated composition of who those judges are in the next corporate book. That's kinda the place for that kind of thing after all. :)

Which reminds me! I need to set up a poll...

Nath

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« Reply #53 on: <09-12-15/0844:21> »
Percentage did matter when the Big Eight had to dilute their 12.5% stakes to 10% to account for CATCo's and Wuxing's ascendance in the 2060s.
I did not say percentage doesn't matter. I said they're an unnecessary complication. The Big Eight diluted their one eighth stake to a one ninth stake by electing Wuxing candidate in 2059, then to one tenth by electing Cross Applied Technologies' candidate in 2060.

Percentage are a convenient way to quickly give people an idea of how votes and dividends split. In fact, they actually really don't matter, because shareholders votes and dividends are always calculated according to the actual total number of shares, and not some numbers artificially rounded up or down.

While that made no difference there was the Big Eight or the Big Ten, it was when they were the Bigh Seven or the Big Nine because 14.28571428...% and 11.11111111...% are not practical numbers for calculus. While referring to them as holding a one seventh, one eight, one ninth or one tenth stake is equally convenient to quickly give people an idea of how votes and dividents split. That's possible because Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank have such a low number of shares (as opposed to regular corporations, whose number of shares rather are something like 5,805,840,028).

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #54 on: <09-13-15/0056:08> »
Depends on the corporation; depends on the shares.

Berkshire Hathaway A: 1.635 million shares outstanding.  Trades at around $200,000 per share.  Receives no dividends, does not split.
Berkshire Hathaway B: 2.453 billion shares outstanding.  Trades at around $130 per share.  Receives dividends, may split.
WalMart: 3.206 billion shares outstanding.

Etc.  In my modification of the corporation trackers from previous corporate books, I built S-K like Berkshire Hathaway - you can invest, even get dividends, but Lofwyr owns the vast majority of the 'Saeder-Krupp A' shares (as in 99.999% - he gives a share or two to people as personal rewards), which means he's the one that calls the shots no matter what; even a unified vote of the S-K.B shareholders can't oust him.  Aztechnology has a similar, but not identical, scheme ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #55 on: <09-13-15/0705:45> »
Those are preferred shares.  They get dividends paid out first, but have no voting power.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #56 on: <09-13-15/0904:35> »
In case anyone couldn't translate CitJoe's referenceless statement, he's talking about the Berkshire Hathaway B issue.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #57 on: <09-13-15/1113:28> »
Preferred Shares is a common practice in corporations. If you're asserting that there are only 8 or 10 or 13 shares of Z-O Bank, I don't believe it.  I would believe 13 voting shares and bazillion of preferred shares. 

Sendaz

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« Reply #58 on: <09-13-15/1128:42> »
It is a funnier animal than you might think as from the corporate guide pg 31 we have this:

Quote
The Z-OG Bank is controlled lock, stock, and barrel by the
Big Ten. The fact that they own equal shares in the bank is one of
the greatest incentives there is to keeping the Big Ten at ten—back
when Cross and Wuxing joined the world’s most exclusive club,
the members of the then-Big Eight all lost a little bit of influence
in the Z-OG Bank, since they had to share it with two other
shareholders. So while the Big Ten coordinate together to promote
their efforts through the Corporate Court and the Z-OG Bank,
none of them ever forget that they’d have even more power if one
of their compatriots fell by the wayside.
The Z-OG Bank is organized to keep everyone involved and
a little bit hungry. There are only nine seats on Z-OGB’s board
of directors (the holders of those seats are collectively known as
the “Gnomes”); each director represents one mega, and each of
them serves a nine-year term. That means that someone’s term
ends every year. When that happens, the corp that person was
representing takes a year off from board membership, rejoining
at the beginning of the following year. Currently, Ares is suffering
through a year off of the board; next year, Wuxing takes the trip
to purgatory. Corporations live in continual dread of the year off,
and they are making plans on how to endure it from the moment
their nine-year term starts. Then they spend the year off frantically
making plans for the next nine-year period so their board member
can hit the ground running.
The board is selected by the Big Ten CEOs themselves.
During their time on the board, they collect two salaries; one from
their parent corp, one from the Z-OG Bank. In theory, this makes
directors continually remember to balance their loyalties between
their corp and the bank. In practice, this makes a position on the
board even more coveted than it would otherwise be, meaning
those who make it to the top are cutthroat survivors. On the plus
side, the high level of compensation makes the directors fairly
resistant to bribery, which is important to the CEOs.

In many ways it is a modern verison of the kieretsu model albeit in a bit looser organization, interlinking the corps and the Z-OG.

So can the common Joe (no pun intended CJ) on the street buy stock in Z-OG? 

I don't think so... he is part of the system everytime he uses nuyen to purchase things as well as his account might be with Z-OG or other banks, but not as a shareholder since Z-OG does not need to have anyone outside of the corps as shareholders and they are also virtually printing money, so they are both Bank and Mint rolled into one.

Plus do not forget Z-OG actually buys and sells other companies stocks as well, like the time Miles Lanier sold out his shares in Renraku to Z-OG at below market price just to mess with the big red R, so it has considerable powers by itself.

But I could be wrong and maybe Nath can shed some light on this as he does have a better grasp than I for all things financial in-game.

Edit: dug a bit further back and in Corporate download pg 23 they mention how Global Financial Services, the forerunner of Z-OG, was basically handling the majority of money transactions by the Big Seven and how precarious this was if this were to fall apart so they convinced the corps to basically hand it all over to the CC so as to ensure a balance to inter-megacorp power and to prop up the CC authority and this would become the Z-OG we know and love today.  No mention is made of shares/stocks during this transition beyond it all being handed over to the CC, so it could be there are type B sort of stocks but they never seem to be mentioned anywhere.
« Last Edit: <09-13-15/1313:35> by Sendaz »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #59 on: <09-13-15/1318:09> »
Actually, Lanier was forced to sell his shares (at below-market price) as part of the settlement agreement that 'turned him over to Fuchi' for corporate espionage; he didn't do it just to mess with Renraku.  Afterwards, it's undoubted that Renraku and/or its board were required to buy the shares from the ZOG, probably at market price, which just goes to show that they make money coming and going.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

 

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