[Whiskeyjack]

I imagine the "one at 6, two at 5," etc went away because 6 was the absolute maximum skill level in 4th, where it's only the maximum chargen level in 5th. It's reasonable to limit a character putting a ton of things at the max level ever at the start but there's less reason for the restriction when it's only half of your potential maximum (even if most characters will have better things to spend karma on than levels 7-12 of a skill).

[Glyph]

(And were also made with the "One skill at 6 or two at 5, no Skill Groups higher than 4" design process, so.)

I wondered a bit at that.  With a few exceptions (such as the Decker), most of the archetypes look more like SR4 characters than SR5 characters, skill-wise.  This is especially jarring when you compare them to the contacts, even ones like the beat cop.  I wasn't sure whether the archetypes were simply done at a lower power level, with awakened characters with Magic of 3 or 4, and lots of unaugmented or lightly augmented builds.  That's how it's always been, though.  The archetypes let you start play right away, but once you know the system, you can make vastly more powerful characters.

[Hobbes]

A bonus that they both have, of course, is that they can go anywhere... neither has Restricted or worse cyberware, and neither has an astral give-away aura, allowing them maximum infiltration. The Weapon Specialist, for instance, is quite able to enter a social event and turn anything there into a weapon, for instance, while the Face has no problems negotiating in even the worst of background counts without pause.

Buuuut, they were designed with an average game in mind, not tweaked to maximum state.

(And were also made with the "One skill at 6 or two at 5, no Skill Groups higher than 4" design process, so.)

Go anywhere isn't difficult to get for most characters.  Fake SINs, proper licenses and a plausible cover get your restricted augmentations/magic auras through check points.  Within a few sessions you're either able to initiate and can consider masking or can get high concealment gear.  Delta fingertip with Monowhip can get through any Cyberware scanner unless you're really unlucky, same with a Delta partial leg and a smuggling compartment.  Or even the assorted Bioware implant weapons. 

The ?Vixtronix? memory blade things are also solid options for starting characters.  Hold out pistols with a decent palming skill goes a really long way too. 

*shrug*  Moderate to high starting resource characters have a lot of options.  Low starting resource characters weren't getting in anyway because they can't afford to start with a fake SIN.  The first run opens up a lot of options for both.  I struggle with the idea that a characters first run is going to heavily penalize one type of character or another.  High level security check points to stop weapon users, or high level SIN checks, or a background count of 4 off the bat.  Maybe for Prime runners.

[ZeldaBravo]

Skills A IS a trap option sometimes.
Why? Because it is a counter-intuitive option for players without experience. You see, the Priority system is made to make people choose what aspects of a charachter they value the most. It is a really simple thought process that only (sort of) fails if you try to create a generalist.
Do you want to play a mage? Magic A is for you. A frontline combatant street samurai? You'll need high attributes and resourses. A decker? Resourses and skills.
But what if you want to build a skillmonkey? It is only natural to assume that Skills A is the best option, right? Wrong.
It really takes some practice to see that you need high Attributes and probably 'ware to be a capable all-rounder because of how dicepools and opposed/unopposed tests work. Most skills in the game are connected to Agility or Charisma and if you have those attributes high you can have a vast majority of the skills covered without even using skillpoints. If you can default at shooting any gun for 9 dice (11 with a smartlink) it doesnt even matter if you have any firearm skills at all. You're already good. And if you spend a tiny bit of karma your dicepool jumps up to 11(13) for a smartlinked gun. That is what a dedicated samurai had in our noobish group when we just started to play.
The Skills A is a trap if you want to create a character with a lot of Agi or Cha based skills because you can get high dicepools in these areas without even trying very hard.

[Rule of Three]

I have to say, there is an awesome amount of information here about why Skills A Priority is simply wrong... and a few ideas on how to make it work, although that really does seem to be the minority.

Thank you all for posting your thoughts, staying civil, and like 80% on topic! It isn't easy with a thread like this.

Personally, I think I agree with the idea that there are better ways to accomplish someone good at multiple areas than Skills A. I am happy it exists though... it gives people some options for their games. With certain story restric-- uhmm, tweaks, it may end up being great. I have yet to make one I feel will be successful enough that I could not make with another priority set, but I'm not that great at character building yet. Maybe it will be like a technomancer; it can make people create some amazing styles of play that I do not think would have ever been common without some non-euclidean thinking to make competitive. I love technomancer now, but it took me many many many hours of reading here. 

Thanks again all!

[FST_Gemstar]

I certainly have fallen into Skills A traps. It is tempting for those of us who like multiple role characters (and technomancers, who may have lots of skills and skill groups to cover).  I have found that it is the skill groups that make it most difficult. Having too many skill group points leads to characters who can't specialize at character generation in important actions for their roles, or dump skill groups in places they don't really need for dice pools that aren't worth it when suffering from deficits in other parts of the character.

However, I really liked how this technomancer face turned out with skills A: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21580.msg391140#msg391140

With Skills B, this character could be a more specialized face, but going A allows it to be a potent and broad face while being a  mediocre hacker too. (In retrospect, I would focus on crack sprites and drop intimidation for either a weapon backup or perception.)

So I know it's been hammered out here already, but when making a character and tempted to take Skills A, it is probably best practice to check yourself  and think about what are you trying to cram in to the character that it could get by without and try with lower Skill priority first and compensating with special powers, gear, or edge.

I would like to think through what kinds of limited character builds where Skills A is most useful, though I don't know if there are any generalizations to make about it. Are there skill groups where individual skills are less essential for specializations or high ranks? I am thinking athletics and outdoors? Maybe stealth and electronics? Are there character concepts where having a broad base of these skills covered with groups and still have skill needs that require lots of skills and specialized skills? Does the character have lots of Agility, Charisma, and/or Logic linked skill needs with the attribute allocation to back them up?

[sn0mm1s]

If your GM is using all the negative social modifiers I think skills A works for faces. Otherwise it is a trap.

[Whiskeyjack]

If your GM is using all the negative social modifiers I think skills A works for faces. Otherwise it is a trap.

What about the modifiers do you feel is most relevant or most facilitates Skills A?

[adzling]

As a face you need your social pools higher than other skills due to the many negative modifiers to social tests and the fact that they are opposed.

Don't try a Con or Impersonate with a pool of 11 or 12 or heck even 14 or 15 is pretty risky often enough.

[sn0mm1s]

If your GM is using all the negative social modifiers I think skills A works for faces. Otherwise it is a trap.

What about the modifiers do you feel is most relevant or most facilitates Skills A?

I guess it depends on what someone expects a face to cover. If you are talking pure negotiation then just say no to skills A. If you are talking about someone who infiltrates through disguise and impersonation and gathers information/assesses security then a boatload of skills are needed. Also, the way social skills work, you pretty much need them maxed out due to the negative modifiers.

Common situation - trying to talk your way past a security checkpoint.
Con Modifiers:
-1 suspicious
-3 result of PC getting past checkpoint is likely at least harmful to the person running the checkpoint in terms of job loss something unwanted happening
-1 NPC likely has some time to evaluate the Con.

Against an average dice pool of 6, with those modifiers, the PC needs a starting dice pool of 14 to average 1 net success.

Even negotiating against the Mr. Johnson contact example in the core book a PC needs a huge dice pool to have much of a shot even if there are no negative modifiers. Mr. Johnson has a negotiation pool of 13 so a PC needs a 16 dice pool to probably get the runners a couple hundred more nuyen.

[Csjarrat]

yeah, i can see an argument for skills A face:
Most used skills depending on table:
Intimidate
Con
Etiquette
Negotiation
Impersonation

Lesser used skills;
Performance
Leadership (small unit tactics!)

Most of these are spread out in different groups or aren't in groups at all so when combined with sneaking/disguise/weapon skills/technical skills, you're looking at skills B as a minimum

[sn0mm1s]

yeah, i can see an argument for skills A face:
Most used skills depending on table:
Intimidate
Con
Etiquette
Negotiation
Impersonation

Lesser used skills;
Performance
Leadership (small unit tactics!)

Most of these are spread out in different groups or aren't in groups at all so when combined with sneaking/disguise/weapon skills/technical skills, you're looking at skills B as a minimum

For an adept - Leadership is used all the time due to Commanding Voice
Perception is a must.
I would argue that, if awakened, assensing is a must.

[Csjarrat]

Of course, yeah. Skills a def looking good for that kind of character then

[NovaHot1]

No. Skills A is not a trap. It just depends on the character. A street sam probably doesn't need Skills A. A mage or a decker or even a face could wisely take Skills A.

[Whiskeyjack]

No. Skills A is not a trap. It just depends on the character. A street sam probably doesn't need Skills A. A mage or a decker or even a face could wisely take Skills A.

It totally depends on how you use the skill points. A face could certainly take Skills A and fall into a trap by allocating them poorly.