[zarzak]

No. Skills A is not a trap. It just depends on the character. A street sam probably doesn't need Skills A. A mage or a decker or even a face could wisely take Skills A.

A mage definitely does not need nor want skills A - remember that magic A gives 10 free skill points.  High magic and high attributes are much more important.  Even high resources are more important (for a high force power focus).

A decker needs high resources for the deck, and doesn't really need nor want skills A either.  Maybe skills B, but definitely not A.

Skills A is useless for a street sam.  A technomancer definitely can't do it.  Useless for a rigger.  Suboptimal for a face.  Suboptimal even for a jack of all trades (high edge/stats is better).

[Rule of Three]

Novahot, I'd love to see more examples showing Skills A as more viable than believed.

Most of the comments here have explained and demonstrated the how or why they believe. So far, the thread speaks to an overwhelming "Skills A Bad!" for most scenarios. There are always exceptions, but the value of other priorities appears to cover what little excess the skills A grants, especially in terms of die pools.

[Hobbes]

No. Skills A is not a trap. It just depends on the character. A street sam probably doesn't need Skills A. A mage or a decker or even a face could wisely take Skills A.

A mage definitely does not need nor want skills A - remember that magic A gives 10 free skill points.  High magic and high attributes are much more important.  Even high resources are more important (for a high force power focus).

A decker needs high resources for the deck, and doesn't really need nor want skills A either.  Maybe skills B, but definitely not A.

Skills A is useless for a street sam.  A technomancer definitely can't do it.  Useless for a rigger.  Suboptimal for a face.  Suboptimal even for a jack of all trades (high edge/stats is better).

A Mage with a strong secondary focus can come out ahead with Skills A since they can get "double" use out of their Drain stat.  Shamans with social skills, Hermetics with any number of Logic based skill groups.  Important note "Strong Secondary Focus"   Skills A, Stats B, Magic C, Meta D (human), Resources E is solid for a specific set of characters. 

Otherwise, yeah, you'll be better off with other priorities at A. 

[Csjarrat]

Novahot, I'd love to see more examples showing Skills A as more viable than believed.

Most of the comments here have explained and demonstrated the how or why they believe. So far, the thread speaks to an overwhelming "Skills A Bad!" for most scenarios. There are always exceptions, but the value of other priorities appears to cover what little excess the skills A grants, especially in terms of die pools.

Skills A for a rigger:

Pilot ground 5 (wheeled +2)
Pilot Air 6 (remote ops +2)
Pilot walker 5 (anthroform +2)     46/46
Ewar 6 (sensors +2)
Gunnery 6 (ballistic +2)
Pistols 4 (semi auto +2)
Perception 3
Con 2 (fast talk +2)
Computer 1 (matrix perception +2)

Groups:
Stealth 6
Engineering 4

Then Resources/attribs B, Resources/attribs C, Meta D, Magic E
depending on how many drones/vehicles/cyber things you're buying. at resources B you can get a really decent RCC, control rig, pimped van, drone fleet

[sn0mm1s]

No. Skills A is not a trap. It just depends on the character. A street sam probably doesn't need Skills A. A mage or a decker or even a face could wisely take Skills A.

A mage definitely does not need nor want skills A - remember that magic A gives 10 free skill points.  High magic and high attributes are much more important.  Even high resources are more important (for a high force power focus).

A decker needs high resources for the deck, and doesn't really need nor want skills A either.  Maybe skills B, but definitely not A.

Skills A is useless for a street sam.  A technomancer definitely can't do it.  Useless for a rigger.  Suboptimal for a face.  Suboptimal even for a jack of all trades (high edge/stats is better).

Skills A is a suboptimal face? If we are just looking at an adept you want to max out:
Con
Etiquette
Impersonation
Leadership
Negotiation
Intimidation
Perception

Those are pretty much required to cover your ability to both initiate and defend in social situations

On top of that I think these are required.
Assensing
Disguise
Sneaking
Weapon Skill

How about not required, but probably good to have?
Computer, Palming, and Arcana (required for initiation)

You aren't getting around all those rolls with Edge unless your GM is very lenient and you can't get through social interactions with just high stats (if your GM is using the social modifier table). If all your social interactions are just opposed rolls then perhaps Skills B would be sufficient.

[Whiskeyjack]

Skills A is a suboptimal face? If we are just looking at an adept you want to max out:
Con
Etiquette
Impersonation
Leadership
Negotiation
Intimidation
Perception

Those are pretty much required to cover your ability to both initiate and defend in social situations

On top of that I think these are required.
Assensing
Disguise
Sneaking
Weapon Skill

How about not required, but probably good to have?
Computer, Palming, and Arcana (required for initiation)

You aren't getting around all those rolls with Edge unless your GM is very lenient and you can't get through social interactions with just high stats (if your GM is using the social modifier table). If all your social interactions are just opposed rolls then perhaps Skills B would be sufficient.

In no way are all or even most of those "required" maxed for a face, let alone a magic face. More gives you more options but you can skip a few of them and not miss them at all.

I'll grab the lowest hanging fruit: Arcana 1 with karma is all that is "required" for your first few initiations. Implying you need more, or that more benefits you in any way, is simply fallacious.

[Hobbes]

Novahot, I'd love to see more examples showing Skills A as more viable than believed.

Most of the comments here have explained and demonstrated the how or why they believe. So far, the thread speaks to an overwhelming "Skills A Bad!" for most scenarios. There are always exceptions, but the value of other priorities appears to cover what little excess the skills A grants, especially in terms of die pools.

Skills A for a rigger:

Pilot ground 5 (wheeled +2)
Pilot Air 6 (remote ops +2)
Pilot walker 5 (anthroform +2)     46/46
Ewar 6 (sensors +2)
Gunnery 6 (ballistic +2)
Pistols 4 (semi auto +2)
Perception 3
Con 2 (fast talk +2)
Computer 1 (matrix perception +2)

Groups:
Stealth 6
Engineering 4

Then Resources/attribs B, Resources/attribs C, Meta D, Magic E
depending on how many drones/vehicles/cyber things you're buying. at resources B you can get a really decent RCC, control rig, pimped van, drone fleet

Stats C on a Rigger makes me cringe.  You're looking at cha, str, both at 1.  Body/will 3, and a handful of points left for Reaction, Agility, Logic, Intuition.  You're short somewhere, and you can't fix it with the starting Karma. 

Resources C on a Rigger you're either going with nearly no augments, or Augments but no vehicle, or just a handful of cheap drones.  And you're limited with how much Karma you can turn into Nuyen.

Skills C and max out your favorite skills, splash your two group points into engineering, throw 30 odd of your 50 starting Karma at skills and you're likely better off.  Skills A you've got skills a Rigger doesn't really need or can't use effectively because of a low base stat and you're short on either stats or gear. 

[Whiskeyjack]

What even uses pilot walker? Did I miss it when the corps started deploying BattleMechs?

[FST_Gemstar]

With those allocations, you could probably drop Con, Computer, and Walker (more than 10 skill points) and take the engineering skills you need for your drones/vehicles (and not the groups), still have decent stealth group, and up Attribute or Resource Priority for more stat/augmentation to the effect of having probably higher dicepools where you need them... I agree that this rigger concept could probably be better off with Skills B.

[sn0mm1s]

Skills A is a suboptimal face? If we are just looking at an adept you want to max out:
Con
Etiquette
Impersonation
Leadership
Negotiation
Intimidation
Perception

Those are pretty much required to cover your ability to both initiate and defend in social situations

On top of that I think these are required.
Assensing
Disguise
Sneaking
Weapon Skill

How about not required, but probably good to have?
Computer, Palming, and Arcana (required for initiation)

You aren't getting around all those rolls with Edge unless your GM is very lenient and you can't get through social interactions with just high stats (if your GM is using the social modifier table). If all your social interactions are just opposed rolls then perhaps Skills B would be sufficient.

In no way are all or even most of those "required" maxed for a face, let alone a magic face. More gives you more options but you can skip a few of them and not miss them at all.

I'll grab the lowest hanging fruit: Arcana 1 with karma is all that is "required" for your first few initiations. Implying you need more, or that more benefits you in any way, is simply fallacious.

What of those would you say aren't required? More doesn't just give you more options - they are required to defend against people socially influencing you as well. Not to mention you are rarely getting your full dice pool on any roll that matters.

[Whiskeyjack]

Impersonation and Intimidation are often a lot less useful than Con. Intimidation especially is nice but not required.

Leadership matters if and only identity care about Commanding Voice.

Etiquette requires minimal investment with good CHA.

Disguise and Sneaking matter only if you are worried about disguise/invisibility magic lighting up the astral and even then it's not a disguise roll to pick up clothes that fit the area, like your contact gets you surplus Ares janitorial jumpsuits for when you're inside their fences.

Assensing is a threshold, maxing it is not needed.

I like my Mage to have a weapon skill but I am in the minority on this forum, regardless, ok AGI and a spec, Smartgun and auto fire make up for a mediocre skill level.

The decker can handle Computer. Palming is rarely a concern if you have a legal gun in most places. Arcana, see above.

Maxing Perception, Con and Negotiation is usually a good idea. And getting specs in them is a higher priority for me by far than Impersonation is. Even with the opposed rolls I don't worry as much with a social limit in the low teens and Edge to spend post-roll

And there's something to be said for Control Thoughts and Laes/Lael.

[Csjarrat]

Novahot, I'd love to see more examples showing Skills A as more viable than believed.

Most of the comments here have explained and demonstrated the how or why they believe. So far, the thread speaks to an overwhelming "Skills A Bad!" for most scenarios. There are always exceptions, but the value of other priorities appears to cover what little excess the skills A grants, especially in terms of die pools.

Skills A for a rigger:

Pilot ground 5 (wheeled +2)
Pilot Air 6 (remote ops +2)
Pilot walker 5 (anthroform +2)     46/46
Ewar 6 (sensors +2)
Gunnery 6 (ballistic +2)
Pistols 4 (semi auto +2)
Perception 3
Con 2 (fast talk +2)
Computer 1 (matrix perception +2)

Groups:
Stealth 6
Engineering 4

Then Resources/attribs B, Resources/attribs C, Meta D, Magic E
depending on how many drones/vehicles/cyber things you're buying. at resources B you can get a really decent RCC, control rig, pimped van, drone fleet

Stats C on a Rigger makes me cringe.  You're looking at cha, str, both at 1.  Body/will 3, and a handful of points left for Reaction, Agility, Logic, Intuition.  You're short somewhere, and you can't fix it with the starting Karma. 

Resources C on a Rigger you're either going with nearly no augments, or Augments but no vehicle, or just a handful of cheap drones.  And you're limited with how much Karma you can turn into Nuyen.

Skills C and max out your favorite skills, splash your two group points into engineering, throw 30 odd of your 50 starting Karma at skills and you're likely better off.  Skills A you've got skills a Rigger doesn't really need or can't use effectively because of a low base stat and you're short on either stats or gear.

Bullshit, attribs c gets you a 3 in every ranking as a starting point and it's not like you can't take cyber with resources b. You can easy get used R3 reaction enhancers to get that up to six for your main driving skill and some muscle replacement for STR and Agi.
Resources C is enough for a shin hung, rcc, rig and a few recon drones. I swear sometimes you're an argumentative git  on these boards for no reason.

[Hobbes]

Skills A is a suboptimal face? If we are just looking at an adept you want to max out:
Con
Etiquette
Impersonation
Leadership
Negotiation
Intimidation
Perception

Those are pretty much required to cover your ability to both initiate and defend in social situations

On top of that I think these are required.
Assensing
Disguise
Sneaking
Weapon Skill

How about not required, but probably good to have?
Computer, Palming, and Arcana (required for initiation)

You aren't getting around all those rolls with Edge unless your GM is very lenient and you can't get through social interactions with just high stats (if your GM is using the social modifier table). If all your social interactions are just opposed rolls then perhaps Skills B would be sufficient.

Required for a Face, Negotiation.  If your table uses Etiquette for legwork then yes, max, otherwise, splash.  Con I'd max out, but most missions/modules you can get through without ever checking Con.  Intimidation and leadership are no way required.  Impersonation and disguise, you need the right team to really make use of these skills.  Standard shadowrunner package, Stealth, Perception, Combat, sure.  Computer, just not needed at all for a Face. 

The quoted skill list is for a Face in a solo game.  Assensing, every social skill, Computer, plus standard shadowrunner skills?  What is the rest of your team doing? 

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Either nothing or just decking a spell casting.

[sn0mm1s]

Impersonation and Intimidation are often a lot less useful than Con. Intimidation especially is nice but not required.

But defending against intimidation - if you don't have it - is *extremely* difficult in any situation where a sane person would actually be intimidated. Armored troll + troll buddy + troll has a club = -7 at a minimum to your die pool. That could be any gang interaction ever.

Leadership matters if and only identity care about Commanding Voice.

Yes, but I would say most faces are adepts.

Etiquette requires minimal investment with good CHA.

It is still an opposed test against perception - which most everyone who matters has a relatively high skill.

Disguise and Sneaking matter only if you are worried about disguise/invisibility magic lighting up the astral and even then it's not a disguise roll to pick up clothes that fit the area, like your contact gets you surplus Ares janitorial jumpsuits for when you're inside their fences.

Completely disagree here. If invisibility is always an option then you don't need a face. If you need a face then it isn't an option. Magic also requires a mage to sustain, deal with wards, along with lighting up the astral. A disguise roll is pretty much required if your face is ever going to be shown. It is impossible to avoid every camera/sensor everywhere.

Assensing is a threshold, maxing it is not needed.

Only if you want simple info and only if the opposition doesn't have initiates themselves. IMO, you consistently want 3+ hits on an assensing roll.

I like my Mage to have a weapon skill but I am in the minority on this forum, regardless, ok AGI and a spec, Smartgun and auto fire make up for a mediocre skill level.

Assuming you can Full auto your way through a fight - where you are basically forced to shoot every other round because of recoil.
And how are you going to conceal that without Palming?

The decker can handle Computer. Palming is rarely a concern if you have a legal gun in most places. Arcana, see above.

Legal or not, there are a lot of places were guns would be restricted. Not to mention palming key cards and anything else a face might find handy. Also, a decker won't always have access to the same computer a face might be on.

Maxing Perception, Con and Negotiation is usually a good idea. And getting specs in them is a higher priority for me by far than Impersonation is. Even with the opposed rolls I don't worry as much with a social limit in the low teens and Edge to spend post-roll

And there's something to be said for Control Thoughts and Laes/Lael.

Maybe our idea of a face is just different. I see a face playing a few roles.
1) Basic negotiation
2) Disguising himself/fellow runners - in more than just a change of clothes
3) Social engineering (which often has to be done solo)

That requires a lot of skills besides just Con, Perception, and Negotiation.