[Tethra]

... and resulting questions to which I´d like a second opinion.

Hi everyone,

as the title says, some things are bugging me and I´ll cut right to the chase:

1.) Sheila Blatavska

Assumtions: She uses the names Hecate and Miss Tick, she is the person from who´s perpective the fiction "...Midnight..." in Dawn of the the Artifacts: Midnight is written.
Who/what is she? She is ancient, well informed and important enough to participate in the discussion in the Atzlan sourcebook. During the time of the Dawn of the Artifacts, she suffers from a condition that let´s her age. In "...Midnight...", she instinctively uses a language I don´t recognize, though it might be sperethiel (use of "-ha"), but that would be jumping to conclusions on my part. I think it´s safe to say she´s NOT Aina (character, relationships, activities don´t match).

Options:
A.) She is Alachia, former Queen of the Elven Court (for legal reasons) Prince Jenna´s mother. I´m only mentioning it, because it was in the back of my head. As -AH- pointed out, she is oblivious of the (covert Ops) foreign policy of both Tirs in the Atzlan sourcebook, which makes it unlikely it´s Alachia, since she sits on the council of princes in Tir Tairngire and is close to Brane Deigh, maybe he power behind her. Maybe she has been kept out of the loop. If she was kept out of the loop, what was she doing in the conversation in the Atzlan sourcebook anyway? If Tir Na Nog fits her MO, the Mystic Crusaders do as well. Searching for artifacts would fit Alachia´s obsession with the thread items (for legal reasons) stuff of others, but it´s thin. Sheila Blatavska´s physical description doesn´t fit Alachia´s.

B.) She is someone I don´t recognize. She is important enough to be in the conversation in the Atzlan sourcebook, i.e. on par with representatives from both Tirs (Ehran/Brane Deigh), Azania (Usomondo), Amazonia (Jungle Cat), the Great Dragons (Dunkie) and Harly. She accused Schwarzkopf of withholding knowledge from metahumanity. I get a "Theran" (for legal reasons) "Santorinian" vibe from her, but I have, sincerely, no idea. Help? 

2.) The human at the Watergate Rift when Ghostwalker closed it.

Harley knew him from Vienna, which could have been 1529. After this encounter, Harley was in possession of Excalibur. The Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge was in town during this time.
Harley called him "the crusader".

Options:

A.) The Pendragon
I don´t know much about him. He was seemingly in possession of Excalibur. Harley possessed Excalibur after the Watergate Rift incident.

B.) The Penultimate Master of the Black Lodge
He was in town, he currently is/wears the disguise of some templar/crusader guy, he probably has the juice and skill to contribute to whatever they were up to. Before you jump in my face, keep in mind that we basically know nothing about the Black Lodge. They were anti elven, but, from what I read, because they were anti "Ancient-Powers-That-Be". They seem to have become what they wanted to fight, but that´s a different story. So they are anti elven, anti dragon to a degree, but that´s not their core agenda. Maybe a bigger cause made them cooperate. The human was with Surehand, the ousted High Prince of Tir Tairngire with an anti Lofwyr agenda. Lofwyr was hit from an BL power site during his duel with Alamais. Lofwyr was not present at the Watergate Rift. (Have to check that, please correct me if I´m wrong.) We don´t know what the ancients know about the Black Lodge or how they stand to them, only that the Great Dragons going after them was new after their attack on Lofwyr.

C.) Pendragon/Penultimate Master, one and the same
After Ghostwalker closed the rift, Harly chose sides. Which one? Between which ones?
He sided with the Penultimate Master against the Powers That Be and got his hands on Excalibur.
Far fetched, I know.

D.) Some other immortal HUMAN
No idea, pls help me out.

3.) Dawn of the Artifacts, Artifacts Ubound
I don´t know what these were about. Seriously, I don´t.
I know how Ghostwalker flarked everyone to get his beloved one back from the dead, but that wasn´t what everyone was up to. What did Ehran want with the artifacts in the first place? What did he accomplish? What was Blatavska up to? Is she still aging? What was "beginning"? Why were the ancients gathering in Washington? What is the artifacts purpose? I don´t know. If anybody does: Please enlighten me.

Have fun, everyone

P.S. Please excuse my bad English, it´s not my native language.
P.P.S. Personal choices: 1B, 2C (Lodge of Merlin, Morgana, Mordred... Okay, it´s "in your face", but Harly always thought of *strangewaytowrite"Arthur"* as an idiot. Does someone remember where that was?)

[CitizenJoe]

Elves weren't the only immortal race created by the dragons.  The Denairastas clan was also created and they were humans.  The Black Lodge seems similar enough in agenda that it could be the remnants of the Denairastas clan.  I hope that helps, but it more likely muddied the waters.  Legally, you won't get an answer because Earthdawn and Shadowrun are different intellectual property and held by different companies.  They literally cannot make the explicit claim that joins the two worlds.

[ProfGast]

I can't speak much for 2) or 3) but as for 1):
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=6370.0 is the last time Sheila was discussed in brief back in 2012.

From the stuff I remember being discussed most seem to agree she is PROBABLY Alachia, or someone close to Alachia.  That said, there has never been any confirmation (or on half of the posters in the Aztlan file either).  Also remember, as far as Immortals and Dragons go, just because they don't match the expected description doesn't mean much, people at that power level are more than capable of changing what they look like.

[Tethra]

Thank you for your replies.

@CitizenJoe

My Earthdawn knowledge is extremely limited, but as far as I remember, Elves were indeed the only immortal offspring of Great Dragons and other namegivers. (I´m not sure about dwarves, though.) The rest were just long lived, but had other traits. (I remember some kind of "super-versatility" being the trait of human dragonkin.)
 
I know that one idea behind the Black Lodge was it being Team Outcast. Also, that said idea never made it into the official material and for legal reasons, never will. But my idea was rather that the human at the Watergate Rift COULD have been the Penultimate Master and that it COULD be that the Penultimate Master and the Pendragon are one and the same person. I wanted to pick the brains of you all in case I missed the obvious. This question should not touch Earthdawn.

I should rephrase my first point, though. Thanks for the reminder.

@ProfGast

That was actually the reason I started this post in the first place. I was with the Alachia=Sheila crowd in the past, but when I questioned my position, it turned out I had no real reason to believe Hecate was Alachia in the first place. And then some other things I didn´t know came to mind.

Yes, Alachia COULD disguise herself, but she didn´t during the meetings of the Tir council. *shrug* I asume vanity is a factor. And Alachia being hands on and in the field? And why would she be aging? And Hecate was oblivious of Tir politics. Nothing to completely dismiss the notion, but....

Usomondo, Jungle Cat and Hecate are uncertain, the rest is pretty much obvious, from later publications and the way they relate to each other.

Thanks for the link.

[CitizenJoe]

The Denairastas clan was pretty much cast as villains.  Uhl was very ancient, but the setting did not stretch long enough to declare him immortal.  And that plot got cut off before the separation of properties so there was never a confirmation of identity.  The trick is somehow getting the power immunity to aging.

Vampires do not exist in Earthdawn because blood magic was so powerful that vampires feeding on blood provided untenable power issues.  That being said, Ritual of the Thorns level magic was well within their power.  It is a very easy hop to believe that the Denairastas developed a blood magic ritual which essentially made them vampires.  That would grant immunity to aging.

[Tethra]

@CitizenJoe

None of them made it. In a reality that for legal reasons doesn´t exist, the Penultimate Master is possessed/in a spirit pact with an ancient spirit, that was supposed to be either Outcast or one of his minions. That´s where he get´s his immunity to aging from. That´s why he is the "penultimate", not the "ultimate" master. On a site note: The Lodges trait is that incorporates all magical traditions. Human versatility. Unified Magic Theory? If Outcast was still around (in the back of my head, there is a note that says he bit the dust, but I´m not sure... It has been a long time...), my money would be on Schwarzkopf.

I guess the Penultimate Master being in a spirit pact is still the case, just the identity of said spirit may be different.

Err... there actually were vampires in Earthdawn. Low level horrors, horror constructs, something like that. They are the reason some older folks still connect Essence Drain with Horrors. (Including me.) AncientHistory debunked the connection. Of course he´s wrong. *duck*
(Srsly, who knows what happens to MMVV victims, once their masters return?)

I think nobody pulled off an immortality ritual in Earthdawn. That being said: Never underestimate human versatility, especially combined with that human disciplin which allowed you to develop traits of other races. (The rules only gave the option to get their racial attribute modifiers, I don´t know what else was implied.)
The only case of human immortality from ED times, ignoring horror marks, I can remember, was "The Nameless Lad" from "Legends".

Edit: Someone might have pulled off a ritual that granted immortality as a byproduct. In the 4th Edition Cyberware book, there was something about cybermancy based on rituals to create a "Great One" from Azania, somehow connected to the Havenheard tribe. Azania is a former Theran colony, the Havenheard College a group of their elite mages. Cybermancy, by 4th Edition rules, granted immunity to aging.
Btw. Does someone know what "Great One" means?

[CitizenJoe]

The no vampires in Earthdawn came from one of the developers himself.   I think it was Lou Prosperi.   Don't quote me on that, but it was one of them.  If vampirism did show up, it came from later writers when the rights were leased out.

I'm also 90% sure that the dragon Denairastas, who gave the family the name, was The Outcast.

[Sendaz]

The no vampires in Earthdawn came from one of the developers himself.   I think it was Lou Prosperi.   Don't quote me on that, but it was one of them.  If vampirism did show up, it came from later writers when the rights were leased out.

Yes and No.

Vampires are actually mentioned in an example about Pattern Items in the 1st Edition Earthdawn Companion, pg 48,

In addition to learning the Key Knowledge held by   a
Pattern Item, it is also necessary to know the truth behind the knowledge the Pattern Item
represents.

Grolk enters the village of Corthy, hunting a vampire who has bitten the archer Delthrien. While in
the village he hears a story about how a gem merchant managed to ward off the vampire with a clove
of garlic. Grolk now knows that garlic affects this vampire, and he reasons that this knowledge is
the sort associated with a Pattern Item. The ability of garlic to drive off a vampire sounds like
a magical interaction derived from the nature of the vampire's true pattern. Grolk now needs the clove that drove off the
vampire. The clove of garlic is a  Minor Pattern Item for the vampire.

However no actual stats for vamps as critters are mentioned until 2nd edition, which by then was under Living Room Games- who had gotten the license from FASA.

[CitizenJoe]

They also talk about Superman and Clark Kent's glasses IIRC.

[Sendaz]

In Companion or Core?  do not recall that, but could see them being a Major Pattern Item for our favourite reporter.

Clark Kent's Glasses

Thread Ranks
Rank 1:    Cost : 300
Key Knowledge: The wearer must learn the name of the glasses
Effect: The glasses add +2 dice to any Disguise attempt

Rank 2     Cost 500
Effect: Wearer is seen to be very mild mannered and well liked. 
Add +2 Dice to any Friendly social interactions,
-2 Dice to any hostile social interactiongs (ie not very intimidating)

Rank 3    Cost 800
Key Knowledge: Wearer must learn about Clark Kent's alter ego.
Effect:  The glasses add another +2 Dice to any Disguise attempt.


Rank 4  Cost 1,300
Effect: Even if told that the wearer is in Disguise, observers must make a successful Charisma + Willpower (3) Test to believe this statement.
Otherwise they dismiss the person telling them as being sadly mistaken.
Does not stop someone from seeing through the disquise itself, they just might not believe someone else telling them it is a disguise, which would normally negate or at least provide a bonus to see through the disguise.

[Tethra]

How the hell did this thread end up here? ^^

@CitizenJoe

I was under the assumption Outcast and Denairastas were the same Dragon. I almost always mistype "Denairastas" (Copy -> Paste works), hence I use "Outcast". Sry for the confusion.

When it comes to sourcebooks: I´m German and owned the German versions of the Earthdawn books. (Still own them, I hope, somewhere, inside some box.) I have no idea what version I played (books had a FASA logo on them). The Core Rulebook had stats for vampires. The last time I touched the books was 15 years ago.

@Sendaz

Nice one!
(But shouldn´t the costs be in Karma/Street Rep/Fame?)


Seriosly, how did we end up here?

[Sendaz]

Road Trip Forum Style!!!! 

Sorry, the costs were in old ED terms of Legend points.

Anyway, back on topic...

As to your mystery woman, I would probably suggest throwing it at Wyrm and see what he knows on it as he is sort of the resident LoreKeeper.

The other prob is there is often minor tweaks between the core English and german translations, which can make for interesting discussions when your sources may differ (granted should still be pretty close, but there are variations.)

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You can use standard EarthDawn references, Tethra.

As for either of them, I don't recall precisely Blatavska's identity - or if it's been officially (or unofficially) revealed.  IIRC she and Frosty go toe-to-toe at the end of the whole Artifacts thing, and if she had been Alachia, she would have wiped the floor with Frosty, Harlequin's teaching or not.  She is more than likely to be another Immortal Elf - as the first Threats book says, there are less than 25 IEs (though the writer screwed up whether or not Frosty was a new IE, which she is), and we only have names for what, maybe a dozen of them?  And we lost one in DC (Aina)?  Given that, and presuming that she is a) an IE and b) not one we know of, she most likely is one who was born late in the 4th World, who doesn't have a whole lot more skill/experience with magic that Frosty does.

If she is, as MoleMan suggests in the Threats book, the standard straight-up human mage-with-Talent Maria Kapatelis, then that might put her at Frosty's power-level.  She might have Alachia's backing - if Alachia's done with being on the throne (per se) and is working behind the scenes, then that would make some amount of sense, having fingers in as many pies as possible.

In regards to the human in DC, I vaguely remember that being figured out here on the boards, but don't quote me on that.

[Nath]

IIRC she and Frosty go toe-to-toe at the end of the whole Artifacts thing, and if she had been Alachia, she would have wiped the floor with Frosty, Harlequin's teaching or not.

I read each of them, and there is no such thing at the end of any of the Dawn of the Artifacts or Artifacts Unbound adventures.

[Longshot23]

Frosty and Jenna NiFairra get into a mage-off in Something Dark in the Woods, one of the Artifacts Unbound collection.

Previous debates/arguments resulted in Alachia being considered distinct from Sheila Blatavska. I know I had to reconsider my belief.