[CitizenJoe]

Jenna is Alachia's daughter. They look the same save for different hair color.

[Tethra]

Sry for answering so late, things came up.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Like Nath, I did not find the encounter between Frosty and Blatavska in the Artifacts series
Wyrm mentioned, but I did find the encounter between Frosty and Jenna, complete with stats and all, Longshot23 mentioned.

Let´s just hope future publications shed some light on her. I was really hoping I simply missed something...

Another question:

The Penultimate Master and the Black Lodge.

What do we really know about them if we assume the Denairastas angle is off the table? (Unless someone can give me a good reason why that´s still a viable option...)

We have seen stats for J.W. Ellis, a member of the Lodge of Merlin, Judge of the Lodge of Morgana (NA), which didn´t impress me much. According to "Threats" he should be a grade 13+ initiant. Ellis is grade 7. (Ellis is also a social adept, maybe he just scammed his way into his position, but I doubt it.)

One of the Black Lodge´s power sites was used, presumably by them, to hit Lofwyr during his duel with Alamais. Lofwyr survived. I have no idea how to compare this to Hestaby´s attack on Alamais, who was presumably in his lair or at a protected site when a much more skilled Hestaby (much more skilled than those who attacked Lofwyr, that is, according to Lung) hit him from a damaged powersite. Alamais also survived.

Do you guys and gals believe it was the Black Lodge who took a shot at Lofwyr?

If so, in addition to Ellis´ stats, they don´t seem to be the mysterious ubermages anymore. Thoughts?

Have fun, everyone!

[CitizenJoe]

Why did Denairastas come off the table?

[Crimsondude]

We have seen stats for J.W. Ellis, a member of the Lodge of Merlin, Judge of the Lodge of Morgana (NA), which didn´t impress me much. According to "Threats" he should be a grade 13+ initiant. Ellis is grade 7. (Ellis is also a social adept, maybe he just scammed his way into his position, but I doubt it.)

Karma doesn't buy what it used to, especially when it's Magic and Initiation being purchased.

What do we really know about them if we assume the Denairastas angle is off the table? (Unless someone can give me a good reason why that´s still a viable option...)

I assume he's off the table for a couple of reasons. First, in ED, he had to refresh the line directly because it would become too diluted over generations. Unless he was accessible during the Fifth World, the clan would presumably have died out by now.  Second, there is apocrypha online about the secret origin of the Black Lodge based on material that was intended to be but for whatever reason was not published and is therefore not canon. That origin doesn't involve dragons.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Yeah.  And it's so cool.

[Longshot23]

Why couldn't it be both?   

[CitizenJoe]

I think that it is a dangerous assumption to think that the Denairastas clan couldn't make it through the 5th world. 

However, the simple fact is that the Denairastas clan and the Black Lodge share the same role in the classic story telling structure.  So, it could be completely coincidence that they appear because that organization type is needed by the narrative.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I think it's a dangerous assumption that they could - because if they could, then they already would have, and really, we'd have about a hundred and sixty immortal humans running around, if not many, many more.  A 'diluted line' is a genetic concern for the first two or three generations, yes, but the thing is that you need that 'dilution' in order to create a family line that doesn't fall afoul of its own negatives.  If you want a good example of this in modern fiction, look at Charles Stross' 'Merchant Princes' series - which goes south after the second or third book, writing- and concept-wise, but explains pretty solidly why you want an 'inner family' and an 'outer family' which the inner family interbreeds with, exactly in order to prevent those negatives (sickle-cell anemia, anyone) from cropping up.

Only thing is, humans breed like humans - a generation is 20 years.  Which means in the ensuing 5,000, virtually everyone in the world is going to be a carrier, and there are going to be a goodly number of actual expressions among them.

Denairastas and the Outcast, I always had the sense, were forbidden - and if the latter continued to 'reinforce' the bloodlines of the former by breeding with them, I think that down the line all the great dragons and other immortals would have come down on the Outcast and Denairastas like an automatic sledgehammer on a Ming vase - complete and utter destruction.  Which, IMO, is (or should be) the treatment they receive in SR: 'they don't exist any more'.

[Crimsondude]

I should mention that every other entry in Threats that has reappeared has followed the Game Information section of that Threat very closely, if not exactly. Vampires/Ordo Maximus, Alamos 20K, the Secret Hive, Mr. Darke, Halberstam, Winternight, KSAF, Lofwyr, the Blood Mage Gestalt, the Human Nation, Strain III, Tutor, and immortal elves all tracked with the mechanics and information set forth in that book. So why would you expect the Black Lodge to be any different in that regard? The book was published in 1996 at the height of the gestalt formed by connecting Shadowrun and Earthdawn more closely. The Black Lodge had no Fourth World connection; rather, their hatred for the Tírs was purely competitive. "The Black Council views the elven nations as rival organizations seeking the same goals, using very similar means." Threats, 83.

The Penultimate Master identified in Threats saw battle in the Crusades and was born in the 13th or 14th century, which is a pretty strong hint as to The Crusader's identity. To be honest, just the idea of how much work went into that guy should merit a great deal of deference.

That said, the Black Lodge since described in Loose Alliances and the mid-2000s did take certain liberties with that information. Subsequent meddling by yours truly and other active writers has taken its own course.

Anyway, I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm not inclined to say any idea is wrong. Some may be. They all may be. We may have weaseled our way into tying all of this stuff together. But meanwhile, this discussion is fascinating.

[CitizenJoe]

I'd like to point out that the dragons DID come down hard on the Outcast.  It isn't just some nickname.

Magic didn't completely disappear like a manavoid.  It just dropped to very low levels. So low that you couldn't pull off flashy effects... except for all those times when people did... ever hear of a miracle? 


I've got zero problems with some sort of cult, likely using blood magic, that could pass down a legacy through the generations, possibly by spirit pacts and inhabited hosts. I've got zero problems with Dragons hiding in astral cocoons as developed by All Wings to get through the Third World.  I've got zero problems with cults communing with said dragons as gods during that time.

I've also got zero problems with all that falling apart or getting twisted.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Then by all means use them in your game.  When it comes to canon, on the other hand ...

[CitizenJoe]

Canon will never allow it explicitly because the intellectual properties are owned by separate companies.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... because it's already been essentially established as being not Denairastas - nor has the Denairastas clan ever been brought into SR Canon.  Q.E.D.

[Crimsondude]

That just means we can't use any material produced by LRG or Red Brick. If FASA owned the IP, it's fair game for us.

I should add that in The Clutch of Dragons, someone was killing a lot of people who could have either been tied to downcycle hunters, or dragon-meta matings, or something else, or all of the above, or none of the above.

[Sendaz]

It would be really interesting to find a journal/log of someone who had been one of the downtime hunters who had been removing dragons while they slept through the changing of the ages, if only to see what form the big wyrms took during this time.

Were they fully physical and flesh but just sleeping?
Maybe they turned to stone during the downtime, or cocooned partially in the astral to maintain themselves down through the ages...

While they called it sleeping, it could have taken many forms.