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Chris-J

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« Reply #15 on: <10-09-15/0831:16> »
Ok, this thread here (rpg.net) http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?766474-Shadowrun-5th-Data-Trails

Is quite negative concerning SR5, but I get the impression from that thread that the core rules are fine; the trouble starts when you start adding in the expansion books like Data Trails etc.

Is this the case? Are the core rules good but the expansions not so good?

Sorry I keep asking questions but with postage, SR5 is almost £40 and not only that, but I'm undecided as to whether or not I should go for SR5 or Interface Zero 2.0 (also almost £40).

AJCarrington

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« Reply #16 on: <10-09-15/1057:46> »
Pretty subjective. There has been a LOT of feedback over recent supplements (post Run Faster)...some of the biggest issues have been ToC (or lack thereof) and the ratio of crunch to fluff. There are other issues (drugs seem to come to mind), but the tend to be focused on very specifics aspects. By contrast, initial feedback on Hard Targets (release yesterday) has been very positive (ToC and more "crunch").

I have IZ 2.0 and it is a great game. However, it doesn't have nearly the same breadth/scope of SR...which is both good and bad (IMHO).

Not sure if this helps, hope so.

Chris-J

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« Reply #17 on: <10-09-15/1122:00> »
Pretty subjective. There has been a LOT of feedback over recent supplements (post Run Faster)...some of the biggest issues have been ToC (or lack thereof) and the ratio of crunch to fluff. There are other issues (drugs seem to come to mind), but the tend to be focused on very specifics aspects. By contrast, initial feedback on Hard Targets (release yesterday) has been very positive (ToC and more "crunch").

I have IZ 2.0 and it is a great game. However, it doesn't have nearly the same breadth/scope of SR...which is both good and bad (IMHO).

Not sure if this helps, hope so.
It does help

Thank you for the feedback

Chris-J

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« Reply #18 on: <10-09-15/1123:05> »
I assume combat (fighting etc) plays a big part in Shadowrun

On average, how long do fights last between say, 5 runners and 5 bad guys?

Beta

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« Reply #19 on: <10-09-15/1153:09> »
With regard to the Data Trails criticism, there is a persistent problem in at least most cyberpunk type games between wanting to make hacking dynamic, dramatic, and immediate, versus realistic.  SR has the added burden that its first edition pre-dated the world wide web by a few years and ubiquitous wireless devices by closer to two decades. 

In 4th and 5th editions SR made efforts to bring the matrix into a form that is less unbelievable (i.e. not behind where we are now), while making hacking something you do while part of the party, as opposed to the old stereotype of the GM and hacker playing through that part of things while everyone else went to get pizza, then everyone else getting to do their thing while the hacker character played video games.  I think they’ve done a semi-decent job with the play style issue, but a lot of people find the new matrix is simultaneously jarring because it is so different from what was in older editions, but still not believable.  In Data Trails they kind of doubled down, putting in some cool new stuff for hacker types to experience and explore, while really straining the suspension of disbelief for some people. 

(Personally, if I’m accepting trolls with fireballs flying out of their fingers, and an economy where shadowrunners are integral to how things work, accepting the matrix doesn’t really bother me.  But perhaps because we actually have experience with computers and networks, a lot of people seem to want it to make sense based on what they know)

As for the combat scene, I think the answer if very much “it depends.”  There are sufficient tactical and strategic options in SR that a combat can play out in very many different ways.  If everyone grabs cover and uses full defense and neither side has a real superiority in magic or drones, then it could drag out for quite a while.  Meanwhile one big fireball might end it almost instantly.  What you tend not to have is situations where one side has the clear advantage, but it just takes a lot of back and forth rolls to whittle the other side down—at least compared to a lot of other game systems.  Combat can be pretty dynamic, at least if both sides put their minds to it.

Worth noting, perhaps, is that as each action can involve an attack roll, a defense roll, and a damage soak roll (and if it is a spell there will also be a drain soak test), each of which likely involves rolling 10+ dice and looking for the ones that come up five or six.  In other words, the mechanics of the game are not especially speedy.  On the other hand because the rolls pack a a fair bit of information (how many successes, is the roll a glitch, compared to a simple pass/fail or fumble/fail/succeed/crit scale), personally, I find the dice rolling a far more interesting part of SR than most games. 

adzling

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« Reply #20 on: <10-09-15/1222:55> »
I've been playing Srun since 1e back in 1990, currently running a 5e campaign.

5e suffers from horrific editing, poor rules balancing and terrible book layout and proof reading that frequently makes divining the meaning of the rules almost impossible requiring a trip to the boards (here!) to discuss amongst the community to discern what people think RAW and RAI are meant to be.

So as a result its a *very* difficult system to GM and learn.

Having said that the setting is awesome and being a die-hard runner myself I find it very fun when things go well at the table.

It's not the type of RPG for a casual game imho, far too many buried, obscure, poorly written rules.

Chris-J

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« Reply #21 on: <10-09-15/1257:51> »
I've been playing Srun since 1e back in 1990, currently running a 5e campaign.

5e suffers from horrific editing, poor rules balancing and terrible book layout and proof reading that frequently makes divining the meaning of the rules almost impossible requiring a trip to the boards (here!) to discuss amongst the community to discern what people think RAW and RAI are meant to be.

So as a result its a *very* difficult system to GM and learn.

Having said that the setting is awesome and being a die-hard runner myself I find it very fun when things go well at the table.

It's not the type of RPG for a casual game imho, far too many buried, obscure, poorly written rules.

Edit, layout, those things I can deal with, but poorly written rules in obscure places it a more serious issue
« Last Edit: <10-09-15/1630:22> by Chris-J »

Chris-J

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« Reply #22 on: <10-09-15/1258:31> »
With regard to the Data Trails criticism, there is a persistent problem in at least most cyberpunk type games between wanting to make hacking dynamic, dramatic, and immediate, versus realistic.  SR has the added burden that its first edition pre-dated the world wide web by a few years and ubiquitous wireless devices by closer to two decades. 

In 4th and 5th editions SR made efforts to bring the matrix into a form that is less unbelievable (i.e. not behind where we are now), while making hacking something you do while part of the party, as opposed to the old stereotype of the GM and hacker playing through that part of things while everyone else went to get pizza, then everyone else getting to do their thing while the hacker character played video games.  I think they’ve done a semi-decent job with the play style issue, but a lot of people find the new matrix is simultaneously jarring because it is so different from what was in older editions, but still not believable.  In Data Trails they kind of doubled down, putting in some cool new stuff for hacker types to experience and explore, while really straining the suspension of disbelief for some people. 

(Personally, if I’m accepting trolls with fireballs flying out of their fingers, and an economy where shadowrunners are integral to how things work, accepting the matrix doesn’t really bother me.  But perhaps because we actually have experience with computers and networks, a lot of people seem to want it to make sense based on what they know)

As for the combat scene, I think the answer if very much “it depends.”  There are sufficient tactical and strategic options in SR that a combat can play out in very many different ways.  If everyone grabs cover and uses full defense and neither side has a real superiority in magic or drones, then it could drag out for quite a while.  Meanwhile one big fireball might end it almost instantly.  What you tend not to have is situations where one side has the clear advantage, but it just takes a lot of back and forth rolls to whittle the other side down—at least compared to a lot of other game systems.  Combat can be pretty dynamic, at least if both sides put their minds to it.

Worth noting, perhaps, is that as each action can involve an attack roll, a defense roll, and a damage soak roll (and if it is a spell there will also be a drain soak test), each of which likely involves rolling 10+ dice and looking for the ones that come up five or six.  In other words, the mechanics of the game are not especially speedy.  On the other hand because the rolls pack a a fair bit of information (how many successes, is the roll a glitch, compared to a simple pass/fail or fumble/fail/succeed/crit scale), personally, I find the dice rolling a far more interesting part of SR than most games.
Thank you for sharing this Beta

Chris-J

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« Reply #23 on: <10-10-15/0210:04> »
I've been playing Srun since 1e back in 1990, currently running a 5e campaign.

5e suffers from horrific editing, poor rules balancing and terrible book layout and proof reading that frequently makes divining the meaning of the rules almost impossible requiring a trip to the boards (here!) to discuss amongst the community to discern what people think RAW and RAI are meant to be.

So as a result its a *very* difficult system to GM and learn.

Having said that the setting is awesome and being a die-hard runner myself I find it very fun when things go well at the table.

It's not the type of RPG for a casual game imho, far too many buried, obscure, poorly written rules.
Do the rules work or are there parts where they are broken?

I don't mean in need of errata (all games require that), but are some rules unplayable as they are?

I really want to buy/GM SR5 but I'm not sure if it's possible for a new player.

AJCarrington

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« Reply #24 on: <10-10-15/0831:29> »
You might check out this thread:

Complex Action - My Shadowrun/RPG YouTube

Some of the videos might give you a lot of insight/help in getting ramped up with the game.

Chris-J

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« Reply #25 on: <10-10-15/0927:58> »
Just bought the hardback

Gorgeous book! It'll be worth it if I only read it

adzling

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« Reply #26 on: <10-10-15/1133:31> »
They mostly work.

The Vehicle and Barrier rules are totally borked however, and the matrix rules make zero sense and Technomancer's are mostly useless unless you play them as pet wranglers.
Ignore the pre-made characters in the rulebook, they are totally wrong, instead check out the thread in this part of the forum.

I've been playing Srun since 1e back in 1990, currently running a 5e campaign.

5e suffers from horrific editing, poor rules balancing and terrible book layout and proof reading that frequently makes divining the meaning of the rules almost impossible requiring a trip to the boards (here!) to discuss amongst the community to discern what people think RAW and RAI are meant to be.

So as a result its a *very* difficult system to GM and learn.

Having said that the setting is awesome and being a die-hard runner myself I find it very fun when things go well at the table.

It's not the type of RPG for a casual game imho, far too many buried, obscure, poorly written rules.
Do the rules work or are there parts where they are broken?

I don't mean in need of errata (all games require that), but are some rules unplayable as they are?

I really want to buy/GM SR5 but I'm not sure if it's possible for a new player.

Chris-J

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« Reply #27 on: <10-10-15/1147:26> »
They mostly work.

The Vehicle and Barrier rules are totally borked however, and the matrix rules make zero sense and Technomancer's are mostly useless unless you play them as pet wranglers.
Are there workarounds for vehicles/barriers/matrix/technomancers?

Ignore the pre-made characters in the rulebook, they are totally wrong, instead check out the thread in this part of the forum.
I've just checked my SR5 hardcopy and it seems to have all the updated errata (as of 2/07/2014 at least) incorporated into it. There were a few changes to the Physical, Mental and Social limits numbers that have been rectified. Is it this you are referring to or is there more wrong with them?
« Last Edit: <10-10-15/1446:52> by Chris-J »

Halinn

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« Reply #28 on: <10-10-15/2036:56> »
Ignore the pre-made characters in the rulebook, they are totally wrong, instead check out the thread in this part of the forum.
I've just checked my SR5 hardcopy and it seems to have all the updated errata (as of 2/07/2014 at least) incorporated into it. There were a few changes to the Physical, Mental and Social limits numbers that have been rectified. Is it this you are referring to or is there more wrong with them?

Also, most of the pre-mades suck really bad, weapon specialist being the worst offender. Go through this thread for better ones.

Chris-J

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« Reply #29 on: <10-11-15/0131:06> »
Ok thanks for the advice
« Last Edit: <10-11-15/0148:10> by Chris-J »