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Chris-J

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« on: <10-05-15/0758:48> »
Hi all

I'm new to Shadowrun and Shadowrun 5ed but I've a few questions

How much errata is in the latest print run?

I couldn't find a character sheet on the web site

How complex is SR5? I played Runequest 6 and enjoyed the combat system (if you're familiar with that you'll know it's quite crunchy) and I failed to run GURPS because it was so detailed.

I love the SR setting though, so I'm hoping it's not too crunchy

Beta

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« Reply #1 on: <10-05-15/0943:21> »
I’ve not played RQ6, but played RQ3 back in the day (and before picking ShadowRun back up was playing in Glorantha, but with the very un-crunchy HeroQuest rules set).  So I can’t give you an exact comparison, but maybe have some ideas I can give you.

For the most part, SR doesn’t try to be very simulationist.  If you are wearing an armoured vest, it will probably reduce the damage you take, you don’t worry in particular about where you are hit.  Damage is likewise abstracted – you have ten or so boxes of stun damage you can take and the same for physical, and every three boxes of damage on either track gives you more of a penalty on your actions. 

It does provide some degree of crunch in having weapons with various ratings for accuracy, damage, armour penetration, and for firearms firing mode, type and size of magazine or equivalent, and accumulated recoil penalty as you fire more.  There is also a lot of choice of cyberwear (for those that use it), magical powers (for adepts), spells (for magicians), programs (for deckers and riggers) and general gear, all of which has its own associated stuff.  It is, after all, in part a science fiction game and in part a fantasy game, so of course it needs to provide cool gear, augments, and magic.  For the most part none of this is too hard to handle, IMO, anymore than in older versions of RQ you fussed about which spirit magic you had and whether you wanted the extra encumbrance of chain mail on your legs.

Where SR gets a lot of its complexity is in its conflict resolution system, which is very different than RQ (or most other RPGs, for that matter).  The standard test you roll is a skill plus an attribute plus modifiers worth of d6, then you count how many rolled a 5 or 6, and you have that many successes.  Depending on the roll you might simply need to achieve some defined number of successes (‘to spot the bullet in the tree takes at least three successes’), or you may be rolling against an opponent and need to roll more successes than them (‘to spot the hidden assassin, you have to beat her successes, from agility 5 + sneaking 4 = 9 dice to roll’).  Your dice may get modified by poor lighting, magic, or cyberwear (‘I set my image recognition to look for something like a bullet hole, it has a rating 2 so that adds two dice to my perception roll for this’ – but doing that wouldn’t help you spot the assassin, in fact it might penalize it).  The assassin’s dice could be modified by magic (perhaps their agility has been boosted, giving them more dice) or gear (maybe they have fancy active camouflage, like seen in the “Predator” movies.).

And on top of that there are limits.  If you are shooting a cheap ‘Saturday Night Special’ hold-out pistol, you can’t count more than four successes on your attack roll, no matter how many you rolled – it just isn’t that accurate so all your skill only does so much good.  (and on top of all of that, there is a chance to glitch if you roll an excessive number of ones on your dice)

It is an impressively interesting system, providing a lot of dynamism and surprise, while still giving a reasonable feel to contests.  But it does mean rolling, and counting, a lot of dice, which makes the mechanical part of resolving conflict slower than in a lot of systems, IMO.

Chris-J

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« Reply #2 on: <10-05-15/1128:55> »
Hi Beta

Thanks for the in depth reply

Sounds interesting and I like the type of crunch you mentioned.

Do you know anything about the errata and if the latest reprint has been updated with it?

Beta

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« Reply #3 on: <10-05-15/1201:47> »
There is errata for sure (you can find it around this site somewhere).  I don’t know if it got rolled into a new printing (my copy is 1st printing), but I would not be confident on that. 

But honestly the bigger problem you’ll probably find is that the 5th edition rules were not written in a way that makes it easy to quickly scan and pull out what you need.  Key roles are buried in the middle of columns of text, and often you need to put together bits of information from multiple pages (often in different sections of the book) to figure out the full picture of how things work.  You’ll see a lot of questions have been posted in the rules forum here, and while some of them are due to people not having seen errata, and some are the sort of fine interpretation or corner case discussions that you’ll have with any rules set, a lot are just “Hold on, this doesn’t seem to make sense, am I understanding it right?”

That said, my experience is that the rules are pretty supportive of kluges, so those rules issues are not apt to stop you cold, you can ask afterwards and fix things next time.  If a mage puts a domed barrier around a bomb before it goes off, you could double check the rules for the barrier spell (magic section), barriers (combat section), explosions (combat section) and explosives (gear section) …. But if you just have the barrier make a normal damage soak test vs the damage rating of the explosive, meh, you’ll get a not overly insane result and can carry on for now, and you can always re-read those portions after the session, and even ask questions here, to make sure you got it right.


Chris-J

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« Reply #4 on: <10-05-15/1301:25> »
Really sounds like the type of rules and settings I'd love to be involved in - but would give me sleepless nights as a GM

That said, I'm probably going to buy the hardback (if I can find out the errata has been incorporated into the latest print run - and even then I'll probably just buy it regardless)

What if the players didn't want to be tied into the whole killers for hire theme? What if they wanted to start their own news reporting company or something? Anything?

Finally, do you have to go through the whole 'type in the letters', 'what's the name of this game', 'are you human?' thing every time you want to post?

Beta

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« Reply #5 on: <10-05-15/1347:25> »
That last point is something I don’t see, at least not anymore.  It might be put in place only for new posters, to weed out spam?

You can absolutely play SR in a ton of different ways.  One thing to keep in mind is that SR comes out of the cyberpunk wave, viewing the near-ish future through a ‘what if these bad trends carry on and get worse’ sort of filter.  Hence,  despite the advances in technology there are desperately poor slums in once prosperous cities, nobody much is helping the poor and disenfranchised (and when one says disenfranchised in SR, it is quite literal – a non-trivial portion of the population does not have a SIN (system identification number), and so essentially aren’t citizens of anywhere, and have next to no rights or protection.  Meanwhile there are large companies that are literally laws unto themselves, doing whatever they can to maximize their profit with little regard to who is hurt, poisoned, displaced, or otherwise abused in the process (unless it turns into a public relations disaster for them).

It makes for a fairly amoral world.  Runners can’t generally expect a fair trial or due process of law, so they have little incentive to worry about playing by the rules (it doesn’t protect them much).  Some would rather kill anyone they see on a job, to eliminate witnesses, but others go out of their way not to endanger lives because they don’t want to be the ones making things worse.  Some will steal from anyone, to commit nearly any crime, to earn  a nuyen, while others have standards on what jobs they’ll take and who they will work for.  And not every run is a crime spree, they could be hired to track missing people, recover a kidnap victim, stop poachers, deliver magical goods to a dragon, or all sorts of other runs.

And that is just the standard ‘runners for hire’ type of campaign.  The group  could just be trying to survive another day in the slums, they could be a gang, they could be trying to keep a small company afloat, they could be a group of mercenaries, an emergency medical response team, even a rock and roll band.

All of that said, the most material in print is to support the ‘runners for hire’ type of work, but honestly there is not a ton of 'adventure modules' in print, far more is extra stuff (more cyberware, more magical options, etc) or setting background of various sorts.

Chris-J

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« Reply #6 on: <10-05-15/1358:35> »
Sounds good

Thanks again for the info

Glyph

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« Reply #7 on: <10-05-15/1512:49> »
One thing Shadowrun is good at is supporting a wide variety of playstyles.  Even playing standard runners, you can be slum-dwelling street punks committing petty crimes, loud and flashy killers, gung-ho idealists out to stick it to the man, or cold, savvy professional spies and saboteurs.  And outside of shadowrunning, the group could be an up-and-coming street gang, a DocWagon crew (basically paramilitary paramedics), a group of rough-and-tumble thrash rockers trying to make it without selling out, or even a crew of corporate expediters working for "the man".

The game mechanics are fairly scalable, and the character creation system lets you custom-craft a very individualized character.  There are no levels - the main barometer of effectiveness is how high your dice pool is, a combination of skill, Attribute (Strength, etc.), and modifiers.  You can create characters with a wide range of experience and effectiveness, all from the same system.  This can be a downfall, though, if your group is not on the same page.  Be sure everyone has a decent idea of what kind of game you are running.  If one character shows up with a street punk, and the others show up with magically-enhanced kung-fu adepts and cybernetically augmented killing machines, the street punk will feel a bit underpowered when combat breaks out.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #8 on: <10-05-15/1812:16> »
How much errata is in the latest print run?
None, as far as I know. It's all in a separate document.

How complex is SR5?
Extremely. One might say, unnecessarily.

I love the SR setting though, so I'm hoping it's not too crunchy
Well...it is.

What if the players didn't want to be tied into the whole killers for hire theme? What if they wanted to start their own news reporting company or something? Anything?
First of all, you don't have to be killers. You don't have to take those kinds of jobs.

That said, the books are focused on the core themes of the game, which revolve around "you are an expert criminal and disposable asset, and probably a legal non-person, trying to make it to that one big haul." You shouldn't expect a lot of support for alternative play styles; you'd have to figure that out yourselves.

You can flip stuff to relatively easily be a corporate team or whatnot, but journalists? I dunno.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Sendaz

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« Reply #9 on: <10-05-15/1820:08> »
Get the Shadowbeat book on DrivethruRPG for more on playing a journalist, specifically pages 38-56 for the 'And now the News' section of the book.

Yeah it's old, and may need to adjust the rolls to account for limits and other small differences and such, but it is probably one of the better pieces touching on a character bringing the story to the airwaves.

Attitude on Drivethrurpg has a section on pirate media which ties in well if you want to be getting your message out there, especially if you have to do it yourself.

Both of these are older edition stuff, but should give you a good starting point to work from.
« Last Edit: <10-05-15/1830:01> by Sendaz »
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Sphinx

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« Reply #10 on: <10-06-15/2346:42> »
Three sourcebooks have errata posted so far (the core rulebook, Street Grimoire, and Run & Gun). All three errata files and a two-page character sheet can be downloaded from this site: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/game-resources/


Don't let the rules intimidate you. Basically, you just roll a pool of six-sided dice equal to a relevant skill plus an attribute, and count the 5s and 6s ("hits"). Modifiers can add or remove dice from the pool. The one with the most hits wins. Easy.

shotofentropy

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« Reply #11 on: <10-07-15/2008:50> »
I have the third printing and everything from the digital eratta has been fixed.  If there are new errors or contextual errors I haven't seen them. I got mine from Barnes and Noble but my new flgs has two copies, both 3rd printing.  So, they are out there.

Chris-J

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« Reply #12 on: <10-08-15/0126:46> »
That's great news

I posted the following on another website. Whilst it's very similar to my initial question, it does shed more light on my situation and I'm hoping it will also stimulate more discussion. Also there's been no reply on the other site either.

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Is Shadowrun '5th Edition' complicated to learn?

To clarify, there's a difference (to me at least) between complicated and crunchy

Complicated is what it is. "These rules are too hard for me to understand - I just can't fathom them."

Crunchy is the amount of rules. "There are rules for walking, swimming, swimming: backstroke, and 50 different types of swords."

I don't mind crunchy at all, as long as it doesn't bog the game down too much, and it makes sense (i.e. adds to the fun of the game).

GURPS for example, is a game I'd love to run, but I find I don't understand some of the rules as they're too complicated.

Runequest 6 combat is crunchy and it's great

Reason I ask is because of this thread: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

I understand each review is subjective, but that review is putting me off a little. So is SR5 friendly to new players, or does is it for faithful fans who have been through most editions?

For an example, there's a part of the rules that details how a grenade might work when thrown in an enclosed space. Whllst not rocket science, I'm concerned how certain rules might slow down the game. It is true that all rules slow the game down to some extent, but some are worse than others. Which part of the rules would you say is the more crunchy?

For the record, it's very likely I will buy this book - even if it's just to read.

Thanks all
« Last Edit: <10-08-15/0129:00> by Chris-J »

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #13 on: <10-08-15/0719:07> »
That's great news

I posted the following on another website. Whilst it's very similar to my initial question, it does shed more light on my situation and I'm hoping it will also stimulate more discussion. Also there's been no reply on the other site either.

---

Is Shadowrun '5th Edition' complicated to learn?

To clarify, there's a difference (to me at least) between complicated and crunchy

Complicated is what it is. "These rules are too hard for me to understand - I just can't fathom them."

Crunchy is the amount of rules. "There are rules for walking, swimming, swimming: backstroke, and 50 different types of swords."

I don't mind crunchy at all, as long as it doesn't bog the game down too much, and it makes sense (i.e. adds to the fun of the game).

GURPS for example, is a game I'd love to run, but I find I don't understand some of the rules as they're too complicated.

Runequest 6 combat is crunchy and it's great

Reason I ask is because of this thread: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

I understand each review is subjective, but that review is putting me off a little. So is SR5 friendly to new players, or does is it for faithful fans who have been through most editions?

For an example, there's a part of the rules that details how a grenade might work when thrown in an enclosed space. Whllst not rocket science, I'm concerned how certain rules might slow down the game. It is true that all rules slow the game down to some extent, but some are worse than others. Which part of the rules would you say is the more crunchy?

For the record, it's very likely I will buy this book - even if it's just to read.

Thanks all

God I remember that post. Dude just didn't like the game and made things seem a LOT more complex and annoying then they actually are. I even have a reply on there asking if he's ever played anything more complex then 4th ed DnD before because of the silly stuff he went off on (like running, seriously, most games have a paragraph on running).

The rules of Shadowrun can seem very complex to new players. I'll admit, the game has a steep learning curve right at the start (but character creation is still better the Rifts!), but as you play and get a feel for it, the rules start to become second nature. Combat for example seems really hard, but after a few combats you know how to build your dice pools quickly, what you need to ask from (or as) the GM to modify things, and combat becomes a lot quicker and smoother. There is some rules that get into the 'crunch' area, but those are for dealing with things that don't come up as often in some games, like treading water. Not much swimming in Seattle I'd imagine. Grenades can be a bit of a pain at times, I'll admit, but it's one of those rules that seems bad a first, but starts to go smooth after a bit. Shadowrun also offers you a lot of freedom, more then most games I think, to hand-wave the rules and play things out differently as you want. In the grenade example the guy posted, most of us would just say anything in there is salsa without doing much, if any rolling, beyond the initial throw.

Best thing to do is build a few characters of various types to get a feel for character creation, then run a few simple small runs first as you and your group get a feel for the rules and system. Take it one step at a time and you'll be running like the pro's before you know it!

Also, if you want some cheat sheets to have at the table for quick reference of stuff, I recommend these here (http://adragon202.deviantart.com/gallery/47605907/Shadowrun). I use them at my own table and they are pretty nice for quick rules lookups.

If you haven't yet found the main character sheets, there are here (http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-content/uploads/Downloads/CAT27000_Shadowrun%205_CharacterSheet.pdf?b979cc). I also have in my sig a link to a more complex sheet portfolio that I made up for the game with a lot of space for info and notes.

Chris-J

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« Reply #14 on: <10-08-15/0750:02> »
Thanks for the feedback Moonshine

I too realised that the post is obviously subjective and only reflects the poster's thoughts not necessarily the actual game itself.

Personal bias for whatever reason usually creeps in to our mindset at some point.

Thanks also for the downloads!