[Beta]

First of all, I missed putting the '?' at the end of the title -- I'm asking, not telling!

I’m looking for some feedback on a character idea.  I played a bit back in 1st edition, and am running a one player game in 5th (only PC is a motorcycle racing cat shaman—not optimized for power, but in a one player game that isn’t a big issue as everything is balanced around that one character).  So I don't really have a feel for how flexible characters can be in terms of drifting from the main archetypes.

I’m joining an online game, and have an idea that I like, but I just don’t have a good feel for whether it is a viable character.  Concept is a summoning adept elven woman, who is recently out of prison after serving 40+ years for cop killing – she hadn’t really figured out that she had magic back then and screening was not as advanced, so her magic was not detected, and in the high background count of prison she didn’t really develop it, instead relying on become tough and intimidating to survive decades of hell.  Her mentor welcomed her with open wings (Thunderbird) once she was released, and since then she’s worked intensely on developing her magic and shooting ability.

Short form: cheap elf shaman/face to use that effeciency to balance off the awfulness that is aspected mage rules in 5th.

I’m not going to post every skill bought at one point with karma, or the details of her minimal gear as all that is easy to tweak, I’m just looking for feedback of “do you think in a more ordinary group, this character can make a useful contribution, or is it not focussed enough?

== Priorities ==
Metatype: D - Elf
Attributes: A - 24 Attributes
Special: B - Adept, Magician, or Technomancer (aspected summoner: 5 magic, 4 skill group points in a magic skill group)
Skills: C - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E – 6000

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 6
REA: 5
STR: 3
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG: 2 (1 point bought with karma)
WIL: 4
EDG: 1
MAG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   6
Initiative:                10+1d6
Drain dice      12

==Qualities==
-   Spirit affinity (air)
-   Too pretty to hit
-   Mentor spirit – Thunderbird
-   Sinner: criminal
-   (other negative qualities to bring total to 25, of course)


== Active Skills ==
Conjuring group: 6 (summoning, binding, banishing)  (+2 for conjuring spirits of air, from Thunderbird)

Con                          : 4              Pool: 12
Intimidation              : 6                  Pool: 16 (+2 from Thunderbird)
Negotiation               : 4                  Pool: 12
Pistols                       : 4                   Pool: 10
Sneaking                   : 4                 Pool: 10
Unarmed                   : 6                   Pool 12

1 skill point bought with karma for at least: Asensing (pool 6), Etiquette (pool 9), Gymnastics (pool 7), Perception (pool 6)

Gear: key piece for the concept is shock gloves – should be able to land a touch attack on most foes and do decent damage in most cases.  A reasonable pistol, fake ID, commlink are the big ticket items, requiring some karma going into additional nuyen.

General strategy:
-   Always have a spirit up, use abilities liberally (conceal, movement, scouting, etc.)
-   First choice of tactic is intimidate
-   In combat aim to go on full defense (where she has 18 dice to defend), then give orders to her spirit (and re-summoning spirits as needed)
-   Use pistol as needed for extra ping
-   If she can talk her way close (or sneak in close using spirit concealment), or if attacked in melee, can use shock gloves.  Not enough strength to do a lot of damage otherwise.

Thoughts on the character?  At a high level, does it seem viable, or not good enough in any one area to work well with others?  Would you approach a conjuring adept in a different way entirely?

Things I’ve looked at from a more tactical point of view
-   A less ‘face’ type build, keeping intimidate but lowering Negotiate and Con for higher pistols, gymnastics, running.
-   Swap pistols for automatics (covering fire!).
-   Magic 5 is very annoying, but raising metavariant to C (brining magic to 6 and edge to 3) would mean dropping to skills D, leaving the conjuring group at 4 and also losing six skill points (probably from Negotiate and Con).  I’m not convinced this would be worth it.  There is a sum-to-ten build of attributes A, magic, metavariant, and skills all C, resources D that would somewhat work if it were not for the rule about not being able to use skill points to add onto a skill group in character creation.  Aspected mage with magic priority ‘C’ is forced to take skill group 2 in their area, then can only improve on that with karma.  Aspected really does not get much love in 5th edition!  So I think edge to 2 and magic to 6 are the goal for the first 40 karma earned …
-   With enough scrimping and scraping, could take martial arts (possibly ’52 blocks’) and even specialize unarmed combat in the martial art – but with no initiative enhancement she shouldn’t be planning on getting in to too many brawls, so I think that could be adding a strength that she’d seldom get to use. 

[Hobbes]

Aspected Mages get a raw as heck deal in 5th edition.  And Magic 5 doesn't help.  For a mere 4 Attribute points (moving Attributes from A to B) and bumping up Magic to A you gain a phenomenal amount of abilities.  There are a multitude of Elf Face/Mage builds floating around on this board.  Take a look at a few of them for ideas. 

We'll put that aside and let you think on it.

Elf priority B and Magic D gets you up to Magic 6, and gives you two points of edge at the cost of 4 group skill points.  Consider it. 

Unarmed Combat for this character would be borderline suicidal at some tables, if you've gotten surprise and want to take them alive I recommend Tasers and save yourself the skill points. 

If the team doesn't have a dedicated face you're going to be it, I really hate to say 12 dice is bad.  But 12 dice is bad for Negotiation.  Most Fixers and Johnson's will have more dice for bargaining and that is the biggest use of Negotiation.  Either let the team Face do it, if you're the team face you'll really want to drag the skill up to 6 with a Bargaining spec.  Or skip it completely, also a perfectly good option.  Negotiation is kind of a special case where normal sized dice pools need not apply, its a "Go big or go home" situation unfortunately. 

Assensing?  Point or two with karma maybe?

The starting point of "Conjuring Adept" puts a fairly firm mechanical limit on what you're going to achieve, as long as you and the table you're playing at are fine with that, rock on.  If the table runs more challenging games or you personally have high expectations you may want to look at a more standard mage character. 

[Beta]

I specifically didn't want to go with a standard mage for this character ....  The backstory could support it, I suppose, but just not what I want to do.  Plus I've been wanting to take a crack at a conjuring adept since the supplement to first that added adepts, but I never had a chance back then ..... been a long wait!

I suppose one option would be to change positive qualities,  taking Lightning Reflexes and mentor spirit and dropping spirit affinity and too pretty to hit?  Not sure if that much extra init would be worth what is given up? (still usually just two actions, just a bit earlier in the priority chain)

Interesting point about about going to magic D -- getting rid of the magic group points might almost be the stronger way to go!  Will look a that carefully.

[FST_Gemstar]

I agree with Hobbes. Elf B and Magic D will get you 6 Magic and 3 Edge. I wouldn't invest in banishing, as you can just fight spirits with more spirits. Having pistols and unarmed is tough to pull off even for a physical fighting focused character. If you are going to take a combat skill, keeping it to one will free up more skill points for other essentials  If you are trying to cover the face roll, your dice pools for con/negotiation are on the lower end of faces you'll see on this board.

There are some face/mage builds around the board, but few are aspected summoners.  They are probably physically less tough that this character as written, and have more skill points either from being a non-aspected magician and/or Skills B too. If you go sum to ten, Resources, E, Magic D, and everything else B, you can make a potent Magic 6 Aspected Summoner with enough skills to cover the face roll. If the character wants to be good at not getting hit by bullets, Your attribute spread will look the same as you wrote but with 4 less Agility.You'll also lack physical fighting skills.  No physical fighting, you're tough with your tongue, and with a big ol' Air spirit behind you.

However, I like the challenge of your more specific concept. If you are willing to play a more specialized character (meaning other characters will have to serve as primary faces and/or magic specialists), I'd go as follows (and still have some possibility to play with Positive and Negative Qualitiies):

== Priorities ==
Metatype: B(3) - Any metatype
Attributes: A(4) - 24 Attributes
Special: D(1) - Adept or Aspected Magician
Skills: C(2) - 28 Skills/2 Skill Groups
Resources: E(0) - 6,000¥
Bonus Skill Group: Conjuring

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3                            CHA: 8
AGI: 6                            INT: 5
REA: 5                            LOG: 2
STR: 2                            WIL: 5
EDG: 3                            MAG: 6

== Active Skills ==
Automatics (Submachine Guns)      Base: 4  + Karma: 0  = 4   Pool: 10 (12)
Binding (Spirits of Air)          Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12 (14)
Disguise                          Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 7
Intimidation                      Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 16
Palming                           Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 8
Perception                        Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 8
Sneaking                          Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 8
Summoning (Spirits of Air)        Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12 (14)

== Qualities ==
Aspected Magician
Hawk Eye
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Low-Light Vision
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
SINner (Criminal)
Spirit Affinity (Air)
Too Pretty To Hit

This character still can use an SMG to basically spray and pray to add suppression fire during combat while their spirit does the heavier damage. The skill group points in stealth simulate the criminal skills your learned in prison. Ya spirits can conceal you, but sometimes you just have to get in and get out solo. Jack of All Trades will help round out some skill areas (I'm thinking con, etiquette, leadership, etc.) with one point investments that can go pretty far. While not a typical face, this character can bring a lot of great contacts at character generation to help your team in less typical ways.

I built the Meta B, Attributes B, Magic D, Skills B, and Resources E character too, but it is pretty similar to a lot of things already on the board.

[Hobbes]

Lightning Reflexes no.  Just too expensive and won't get you a third action generally.  Carry some Jazz instead.

[FST_Gemstar]

Also:


 Have you ever thought of going mystic adept? The character may need some post-character generation rounding and a few levels of the In Debt negative quality (even just 2 may be enough), but the character may have greater magical, face, and combat potency. Mystic Adepts are also often in parties with full mages who can handle the breadth of magical specialist activities, leaving the mystic adept to do other fun things.

I'd go sum to ten:
Meta: C
Attributes: B
Magic: C
Skills: B
Resources: E

Attributes:
Body: 3
Agility: 6
Reaction: 2 (4)
Strength: 1
Charisma: 8
Intuition: 5
Logic: 1
Willpower: 5
Edge: 1
Magic: 6

Positive Qualities:
Hawk Eye
Jack of All Trades
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird)
Spirit Affinity: Air
Too Pretty to Hit

Negative Qualities:
In Debt II
Sinner (Criminal)
[13 karma worth of other Negative Qualities]

Adept Powers (bought 6 pp w/ 30 karma)
Improved Reflexes 2
[3.5 karma worth of other adept powers depending where else you want to go with the character]

Skills:
Summoning: 6 (+ 2 Air)
Binding: 6 (+2 Air)
[Eveything below is just a suggestion, as the concept can go lots of ways. It is wide, going face, magician, combatant, and sneak to show the options. Specializing in fewer of them would be more efficient]
Intimidation: 3
Automatic: 6 (+2 SMGs)
Negotiation: 6 (+2 Bargaining)
Spellcasting: 5
Acting Group (Con, Performance, Impersonation): 3
Stealth Group (Sneaking, Palming, Disguise): 2

Spells (Charisma-based tradition):
Pick 5, maybe a mix of illusions/detection spells with an interrogation/intimidation theme?


This character would have no karma to start play with. This character starts low cash (16k nuyen) and with In Debt, it may take her a while to get out of it, but hey, she's been in prison and has a criminal SIN, money isn't going to come easy anymore. Buy a point of perception with the first karma you get. Your spirits are going to be better and checking danger than you for a bit. Strength, Logic, and Edge, are all at 1. Raising Edge to 2 would be my first order of business. The character as you described doesn't really need Strength or Logic (if not doing any hand to hand fighting).  Adept powers/skills/spells can be focused to be more combat oriented, to help be the party face, to be extra sneaky, to boost other magic abilities, or try to mix them all. Throwing it out there.

[Halinn]

Sticking to aspected magician, how about sum to 10 - b attributes, b magic, c skills, c metatype, e resources

[FST_Gemstar]

oor... I am feeling the mystic adept build. Instead of spellcasting, get skills in ritual spellcasting. Let the run of the mill shadowmage take care of the regular spell slinging, ritual spellcasting can make your character more unique and in higher demand. Don't want to waste bound spirit tasks when a watcher or homunculus would do? Initiate into Invocation to get a helpful ally spirit? With ritual spellcasting, she can still seem like aspected summoner, but one that can do more with the extra adept powers and more magic abilities. Another bonus to initiating into invocation is that your character will eventually be able to summon great form spirits, great for a summoner but also will allow the opening to astral realms and quests that neither an aspected magician or mystic adept can usually do.

[Beta]

Thanks for all the replies--- lots of food for thought!

I'll probably be back with take 2 at some point.

[falar]

I have to admit that my favorite way to do an Aspected Magician of any sort is to take Mage/Mystic Adept and add Incompetent in one of the realms I don't want and Spirit Pariah if I don't want to summon.

[Beta]

I have to admit that my favorite way to do an Aspected Magician of any sort is to take Mage/Mystic Adept and add Incompetent in one of the realms I don't want and Spirit Pariah if I don't want to summon.

I have thought about that, but I admit that it bugs me.  I just feel that one should be able to make useful aspected mages.  I skipped from second to fifth, so I don't know if aspected mages became too powerful and so got nerfed, or just what, but the rules sure seems rough on them in 5th.  (I also missed the the totem-aspected type from 1st/2nd, but I can understand how they would not work so well under the 5th ed rules)

[falar]

I have thought about that, but I admit that it bugs me.  I just feel that one should be able to make useful aspected mages.  I skipped from second to fifth, so I don't know if aspected mages became too powerful and so got nerfed, or just what, but the rules sure seems rough on them in 5th.  (I also missed the the totem-aspected type from 1st/2nd, but I can understand how they would not work so well under the 5th ed rules)

The way that Aspected Magicians work in 5e is very different from 4e. I believe that they weren't overpowered in 4e. If anything, they were slightly underpowered, but not as nerfed as 5e. However, 4e had build points as the default way to make characters and priority was an "also option" that never included Aspected Magicians. If you wanted an Aspected Magician, you needed to use BP-gen or Karma-gen.

I do think that Aspected Magicians work better in Karmagen or Life Paths as compared to priority. Priority screws them six ways to Sunday. They're not that bad in Karmagen or Life Paths.

[FST_Gemstar]

I like the idea of houseruling some benefits for aspected mages.

The simplest is just to give a free skill specialization in on of the skills in their aspected group. I don't think this is game breaking, as this is just basically a free skill specialization (7 karma equivalent), and I think everyone agrees that aspected magicians are more than 7 karma worse off than other Awakened characters. This would like like:

For aspected sorcerers: an additional +2 to a specific spell type to cast, +2 to counterspelling a certain spell type, or a +2 to a kind of ritual spellcasting.

For aspected conjurers: + 2 to summon a certain type of spirit, +2 to bind a certain type of spirit, or +2 to banish a certain type of spirit

For aspected enchanters: +2 to a Artificing a certain kind of focus, +2 to Disenchanting a certain type of focus, or +2 to certain alchemical spell type.



Another way to rule would to give these +2 bonuses across the board in the aspected group, (ex. Conjurers: +2 summon Air spirit, +2 Bind Air spirit, +2 Banish Air Spirit), but give a -1 modifier to all other spell/spirit types that the aspected magician doesn't focus on (ex. the same conjurer would have a -1 dice pool to summoning/binding/banishing all other kinds of spirits that aren't air spirits). I don't like the idea of aspected mages being less than mages, but more of highly specialized mages that give up other mage powers due to their specialization. I think this kind of rule would go along with that, making really potent in specific areas aspected magicians at the cost of potency in the areas they don't focus on. I think it makes aspected magicians a more viable playstyle.

[Beta]

Just for kicks I gave a quick try at making this work with the lifestyle modules, and holy cow did that fail hard!  LM system seems to be pretty tough on meta-humans that want to max out their strong attributes, and magicians in general (first go dump 100 karma into buying up your magic, if you want it maxed, then buy your spells if you use them, etc).  But maybe my problem was mostly not going through magical training?

[Duellist_D]

Nah, you'd still have to buy up Magic.
Same as with other Abilities, maxing it out in Lifepath is really to expensive.
The only thing that reliably works with Lifepath is maxing out Skill(group)s.
6 in the Firearms Group? Easy peasy.

I sorta would like to try a group with all-lifepath chars once, since you tend to build you Runners quite different with it.