[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I'm not shocked, actually. Only just hoping.

[Finstersang]

Yeah, I hope that we get to do a follow-up with more stuff on RCCs and security spiders, at the very least.

Like - dunno - Spider 5.0?

As much as I´d loved to see stuff like this in Rigger 5.0 (maybe instead of the ungodly piles off fluff text?),
this sounds like a VERY good idea! Please try and push that!

Could also be used to address some Matrix / Host Security issues and fill the gaps that the Core Rules and Data Trails left open:

• Ways to hide Drones in the Matrix (specialized "passive" stealth dongles for RCC)?
• Can a Host share Autosofts?
• Can a Host run silent?
• Is there such a thing as a "Local Host"/Intranet? (If yes, how does it work? If no, why the hell are spiders and sysops not going nuts about that?!?)
• The "slavin´ slaves"-Problem
• More ´bout ownership

Also, more about security measures and the tools to go around them (basically also making it a C.O. Sourcebook)?
It would also be the perfect place (right after Core and Rigger 5.0, that is ...) to add more insight and better rules for Sensors.

As a primary GM, I´d buy the drek outta that, even given the fact that I´ve already houseruled the more urgent stuff.

[Wakshaani]

Note to self: Look up that dang Sensor thread. Keeps getting mentioned but never seen it flagged.

As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.

As for bullet points?

Currently, if your drone's wireless, it's on the Matrix. You can cut the wireless off, but then you're going to have some trickier command issues and no remote operation. Part of the give n take of "everything has a price" ... if they can be online, Rigged live, *and* undetectable, where's the downside to balance that?

A good question about hosts and Autosofts. My gut feeling is no ... a host could issue orders, but not remote-operate unless it's connected to some kind of RCC. Chalk it up to code language. (Why are you on Android when everything else is on Windows! Stupid machines!) ... Keep in mind, I could be completely wrong about this. I'll try to see if Aaron will pop by ... he's the Matrix expert.

A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!

There currently isn't a "Local net" around, and every  Matrix security team is *screaming* about this, but the CEO wants to play Krill Krush on his commlink while looking through R&D's progress. He's a douche and he'll get this corporation ruined. Maybe this whole 'Monad" thing will get the board to finally listen to the IT guys! (Or more likely they'll ask how much it'll cost, ask about profit, and decide that teh risk is worth more than the upgrade's value.)

Slavin' Slaves is on my list, along with some work on Agents. A finite limit's kind of important.

Ownership's an Aaron thing again. Can't help you there.

And, yeah, there's certainly a need for a detailed look at security foo. The Corporate Security Handbook's, what, 23 years old at this point? Yikes.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

80-20% (4:1) is actually really good. Rigger 5.0 (faults and all) is actually one of my favorite books. Almost perfect amount of crunch to fluff. Chrome Flesh, not so much (way to much fluff). And kill the CDF please. Can't wait until this Metaplot is done. Always been more of a astral threat person than AI/nano AI person. Partially due to lack of interest in Deckers and the Matrix. Riggers though, they are cool. That said, when I want High Fantasy I play Pathfinder, which in some ways has much better rules layout, but less fluff for world (do to the way PF and D&D games are done) which is at time sad.

[Wakshaani]

Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)

[Beta]

As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.

For what it is worth, I still have my copy of the 1st edition "ShadowTech" book.  It had one piece of gear/ware per page, with a (usually pretty bad) picture, some fluff, and a stat line -- and of course some commentary.  I still have it after close to 25 years and a bunch of moves because I liked it.  I'm sure it had less overall items than Chrome flesh, but it was easy to read, and the fluff was associated with the crunch.  Chrome Flesh starts the crunch on page 54.  Given page sizes, I'm guessing that this would be a word count on par with page 100 of a novel?  Imagine that you picked up a book touted as a brilliant near future science fiction book, but the plot didn't start until you'd gone through a hundred pages of word building?

[Herr Brackhaus]

A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!

This is just plain incorrect, Wak. Both published source books and adventures indicate or flat out state that hosts are capable of running silent.

For all intents and purposes, there is no “physical” distance to any host in the Matrix. You can always spot a host from anywhere on the planet without a test, assuming the host isn’t running silent.

The Data Host is also the more obvious of the two, as the entire Security Host is running silent. To spot it, a character must succeed a Matrix Perception test versus its dice pool of 14. However, the Security Host (and all IC on it) receive a –2 dice pool penalty to all actions due to running silent.

[/spoiler]

Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)

Chrome Flesh suffered mostly from lack of good editing, in my opinion. Where Rigger 5.0 did this well, Chrome Flesh did it wrong. Just a single-page ToC instead of a proper, bookmarked index; no clear separation between fiction and rules (coupled with the former); rules and tables being way too separated making flipping back and forth required for pretty much everything; the entire custom drug chapter (though this is also content, not just editing).

As far as content goes, I always felt the fiction should be in the fiction section, and the rules in the rules section. With the above comments about editing, Chrome Flesh is a good example of how poor layout exacerbates an issue some have with mixing fiction and rules. Fiction is great, but when it comes to describing what a piece of gear actually does I personally want more mechanics and less fluff so that I can actually know what it does without having to guess or extrapolate.

I also wish there had been more substance to Chrome Flesh instead of yet more pages on CFD. We've already got Lockdown, and Stolen Souls, and Data Trails with heaps and loads of source material on CFD; I would have preferred even more advanced medtech rules beyond what Bullets & Bandages and Chrome Flesh already dealt with (like diseases and pathogens, biodrones, cybermancy, and full-on cyborgs, actual honest-to-Spirit rules on upgrading cyberware (!), and so on and so forth).

Not for nothing, but I've kept my 4th Edition books close at hand because for every book that's released for 5th a bunch of equivalent content that in my opinion should have been included in the 5th Edition releases keep getting cut. Then again, the same happened from 3rd to 4th, so I'm not hugely surprised. I just find it harder and harder to justify spending money on books when they contain less substance, if you'll excuse my bluntness. Fiction is nice and good and all that, but there should be a distinct difference between a core rulebook, which in my opinion should be decidedly heavy on the rules, and a setting book, which should be heavy on the fiction.

As it stands, Chrome Flesh at 242 pages doesn't stand up well to Augmentation at 178 pages, when the former has 85 pages of (mostly) hard rules (I say mostly because there's a ton of fluff in between the actual game mechanics, and I don't count the 16 pages of repeated tables at the end) or just around 35% actual rules, while the latter has 83 pages of actual hard rules (again, not counting the 11 pages of repeated tables) for more than 46% actual game mechanics.

Yes, I counted. The point needed to be made, if nothing else

Misunderstand me correctly, though; setting aside the editing, which is just frustrating, the content that is there is good. I just want more of it from a book that retails for $25; I get that fiction may not sell as well, but as someone who's bought every book Catalyst (and FanPro before them, and FASA before them again) ever released for Shadowrun, I'm sure you can see my point of view as well.

Again, fiction is all nice and good, but when I buy a rulebook I expect rules, and hope that they are clear and concise. Simple as that.

[adzling]

This: "Again, fiction is all nice and good, but when I buy a rulebook I expect rules, and hope that they are clear and concise. Simple as that."

I simply do not understand the thought process that produces a rule/ crunch book like Chrome Flesh that gets filled up with fiction and fluff.

I also agree that the original Street Sam Sourcebook and 1st edition shadowtech were WAY better than the current offerings because you could actually use them to quickly find a piece of hardware that had clearly written rules with the minor amount of fluff right next to to the crunch.

The current methodology of pumping the crunch book full of fluff and fiction makes them bloated, uneasy to access and use at the table.

Which is kind of the point of a crunch book.

I mean it's like someone took the cap off the firehose and just pumped these crunch books full of mostly irrelevant fiction and fluff, and all it does is reduce the utility of the crunch and confuse what the author's intent actually was.

It's a loss all around imho.

I just don't get it.

[Beta]

setting aside the editing, which is just frustrating, the content that is there is good.

Quoted for emphasis.  I do want to point out that, my frustrations aside, there is a lot of good in Chrome Flesh, and I don't regret buying it.  It is possible that I would have found it less frustrating in dead trees rather than pdf, but I was impatient (and cheap).  I do think it did to much 'telling' and not enough 'showing', but that seems to be a general editorial decision in SR5 that I should probably just stop whingeing about.

And back to Rigger 5 -- I don't at all regret buying it in hard copy.  I don't love every vehicle in there, or fully agree with how some of the customization rules are set out, but that is only to be expected -- and on the flip side I found a number of vehicles quite inspiring and we'll be making use of the modification rules with only minor tweaks, and overall it is a book that I'll be picking up again and again.  AND I didn't find the fluff in there aggravating at all.  I'm not sure if it is a ratio thing, an editing thing, a paper vs pdf thing, some of all of the above ...

One thing that I found curious, there was a racing bike in there, which in the fluff was described as the newest and fastest thing out there.  And which has the exact same game stats as the Mirage racing bike in the core rules.  That sort of mis-match of fluff and editing could use a bit of work.  Simply having some Jackpoint poster coming in to say something like "Unless you are timing the bikes on a track, it is unlikely you'll be able to tell the difference between this and a Mirage--except for the higher price tag" would have softened the fluff/stat dissonance.

[Wakshaani]

I think that that's one of the ones that got changed in the last round of editing. There were a few tweaks, some larger than others. A lot of vehicles had their armor reduced, for instance, as it would have taken milspec heavy weapons to scratch 'em. Some got faster or slower, some had seating changes ... lots of lil' stuff. Not my chapter tho, so I couldn't begin to lay  out the exacts. I think that one bike was an accidental casualty.

[Finstersang]

Note to self: Disable sarcasm module when suggesting stuff, so people don´t get defensive. 

Regarding the fluff/crunch ratio: I think for the 4th Ed. Supplements (not the sourcebooks) the ratio was a little bit crunchier than 20/80. I wouldn´t want the supplements to make my gums bleed, but given the fact that there are also many sourcebooks that are 100% Fluff, I wouldn´t aim for 20/80 and more for a 40/60 ratio. Also there´s the crunchy fluff (cruff? flunch?) like usefull tipps and information backing up the rules and more fluffy fluff (floof? fluff²?) that looks suspicious like it´s just there to boost the page count, like some of the chat logs. But that´s just my opinion. If you guys´n gals stretch content that was very compressed in the 4th supplements over multiple sourcebooks, that´s totally acceptable. I don´t mind a fluffier approach, as long as vital chrunch is not ommited or delayed into oblivion - which is the main reason why people are acting up about Rigger 5.0, teh friggen Errata and the missing TM Supplement. 

Regarding the bullet points: Although I really appreciate your quick answers, for once, these weren´t meant to be answered right away.
Please, see these as suggestions for stuff that could be adressed in a Security/Spiders/C.O.-Sourcebook

Just one thing about these: I wasn´t talking about a way to make Drones completely undetectable, just a way to help them evade Matrix perception for a little longer - i.e. a way to get a Stealth Attribute, be it via RCC or an individual modification. Of course they run in wireless mode when being wirelessly controlled, but they can still run silent, just like every other device. Currently, they would only defend with the Rigger´s Logic against Matrix Detection. That´s why some people are concerned with the RCCs (in)ability to have stealth plugin: For a sneaky recon Rigger, having a Stealth Attribute is quite important. And these 1-2 points you can get by modifying the RCC aren´t that much.

Note to self: Look up that dang Sensor thread. Keeps getting mentioned but never seen it flagged.

As for the 'unGodly' level of fluff, that's always been the standard and, AFAIK, will continue to be. Fluff to crunch is never lower than 80-20, and usually more than that. A book of statlines is around 8 pages. Nobody wants that.

As for bullet points?

Currently, if your drone's wireless, it's on the Matrix. You can cut the wireless off, but then you're going to have some trickier command issues and no remote operation. Part of the give n take of "everything has a price" ... if they can be online, Rigged live, *and* undetectable, where's the downside to balance that?

A good question about hosts and Autosofts. My gut feeling is no ... a host could issue orders, but not remote-operate unless it's connected to some kind of RCC. Chalk it up to code language. (Why are you on Android when everything else is on Windows! Stupid machines!) ... Keep in mind, I could be completely wrong about this. I'll try to see if Aaron will pop by ... he's the Matrix expert.

A Host can't run silent. It has things to do!

There currently isn't a "Local net" around, and every  Matrix security team is *screaming* about this, but the CEO wants to play Krill Krush on his commlink while looking through R&D's progress. He's a douche and he'll get this corporation ruined. Maybe this whole 'Monad" thing will get the board to finally listen to the IT guys! (Or more likely they'll ask how much it'll cost, ask about profit, and decide that teh risk is worth more than the upgrade's value.)

Slavin' Slaves is on my list, along with some work on Agents. A finite limit's kind of important.

Ownership's an Aaron thing again. Can't help you there.

And, yeah, there's certainly a need for a detailed look at security foo. The Corporate Security Handbook's, what, 23 years old at this point? Yikes.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Switching topics for a minute, ouching on Chrome Flesh. You mention toomuch fluff. I'm just going to assume, based on teh rest of the statement, that you'd have ripped out the CFD part. WOuld you say, minus that, that it was an acceptable ratio, or is there more that you'd yoink? (I have a pretty good idea of what people wnate dto add, mind you.)

Sorry it has taken me a bit to get back to you. But yeah, it would be a lot closer minus the CDF stuff, maybe more with on healing, true cyborgs, and some cybermancy as well for kicks. I'm am personally looking forward to CDF being done with. Been my least favorite Metaplot of all of them I have read about, so far.

On topic, I have issues with the RoadMaster being the toughest ground vehicle, even when compared to the mil-spec/Security vehicles like the Rhino, which is fluffwise super tough, but weaker than the RoadMaster overall, even if the Rhino comes with some nice pre-installed mods. 

[AJCarrington]

Seems that this has hit the streets (at least the online ones):

CoolStuffInc

Miniature Market

[PiXeL01]

Thank you for the heads-up. Ordered!
Hopeful I'll get it before my next session.

[DeathStrobe]

I just saw a copy at my local game store. So it should be on the streets too.